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Thread: The Hub

  1. #126

    Default Re: The Hub

    Too bad, this was a great project for the area. I wonder if Alley North had something to do with this project not moving forward. Too major projects that close together, I don't think there was enough Oklahoma City to fuel both projects. With that being said, I wonder if CoreBank will anchor some office space in Alley North.

  2. #127

    Default Re: The Hub

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Walker View Post
    Too bad, this was a great project for the area. I wonder if Alley North had something to do with this project not moving forward. Too major projects that close together, I don't think there was enough Oklahoma City to fuel both projects. With that being said, I wonder if CoreBank will anchor some office space in Alley North.
    Wasn't it proposed well before Alley North was even a thought?

  3. #128

    Default Re: The Hub

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Walker View Post
    Too bad, this was a great project for the area. I wonder if Alley North had something to do with this project not moving forward. Too major projects that close together, I don't think there was enough Oklahoma City to fuel both projects. With that being said, I wonder if CoreBank will anchor some office space in Alley North.
    Or it was just never a serious or viable plan to begin with. If you get $6.5 million in TIF money and still cant make it happen, you obviously didnt have a viable plan to begin with. And it shows once again, OKC hands out TIF money way to0 frequently.

  4. #129
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    Default Re: The Hub

    Quote Originally Posted by onthestrip View Post
    Or it was just never a serious or viable plan to begin with. If you get $6.5 million in TIF money and still cant make it happen, you obviously didnt have a viable plan to begin with. And it shows once again, OKC hands out TIF money way to0 frequently.
    They never actually got handed any tif money.

  5. #130

    Default Re: The Hub

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    They never actually got handed any tif money.
    Fully aware of that, Rover...

    But they had that commitment from the city, which is good enough for any bank. And they still couldnt make it work. Which tells me they never had a chance and that OKC is awarding tif money to too many projects. Look at the handful of other projects that got TIF commitments and have still languished for years. Maybe they're marginal deals and shouldnt be incentivized by the city in the first place. Or, maybe start incentivizing everything everywhere in OKC.

  6. #131

    Default Re: The Hub

    There needs to be timeliness places in projects being awarded TIF. Either start within 1 year of approval (or some other arbitrary time frame) or you lose approval, or since other detriment. Can't let people waste time if city council and planning commission with projects they know will never come to fruition.

    Extenuating circumstances are different (like a global pandemic). But right now, that isn't a huge issue. So if you get approved, start work on the project or get out of the way for projects that can start.

  7. #132

    Default Re: The Hub

    I think real estate developments are always a risk. The only difference is the number of zeros. We might be impatient, but I do not hear that TIF awards are harming development in OKC. I wonder if we are solving a problem that doesn't exist?

  8. #133

    Default Re: The Hub

    Quote Originally Posted by onthestrip View Post
    Or it was just never a serious or viable plan to begin with. If you get $6.5 million in TIF money and still cant make it happen, you obviously didnt have a viable plan to begin with. And it shows once again, OKC hands out TIF money way to0 frequently.
    Probably realized they could just sell the property for a Pappasitos with a bunch of more surface parking!

  9. #134
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    Default Re: The Hub

    Quote Originally Posted by bison34 View Post
    There needs to be timeliness places in projects being awarded TIF. Either start within 1 year of approval (or some other arbitrary time frame) or you lose approval, or since other detriment. Can't let people waste time if city council and planning commission with projects they know will never come to fruition.

    Extenuating circumstances are different (like a global pandemic). But right now, that isn't a huge issue. So if you get approved, start work on the project or get out of the way for projects that can start.
    Financing discussions can take a long time and Tif is just one of the considerations. When they try to get Tif promised they are not always assured of financing. If people would go through the processes of doing a development like this they might have a better appreciation for what developers go through. A general internet board opinion is the least of their worries.

  10. #135

    Default Re: The Hub

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Financing discussions can take a long time and Tif is just one of the considerations. When they try to get Tif promised they are not always assured of financing. If people would go through the processes of doing a development like this they might have a better appreciation for what developers go through. A general internet board opinion is the least of their worries.
    Yes, these things can take time. But the developer has surely had conversations with lenders about what they will loan. Thats when the TIF negotiations start, right? The developer comes to the city, show that they have a gap in in the cost of construction and the financing, and they need this much in TIF to make it happen. So they either arent having legitimate conversations with lenders or made too rosey of a proforma that has no basis in reality and under the microscope the lender says no thanks. Either way, getting $6.5 million promised to you in TIF money and then bailing on the project shows that maybe they werent that serious and maybe too many projects are getting TIF money.

  11. #136

    Default Re: The Hub

    Let the TIF flow.

  12. #137
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    Default Re: The Hub

    Quote Originally Posted by onthestrip View Post
    Yes, these things can take time. But the developer has surely had conversations with lenders about what they will loan. Thats when the TIF negotiations start, right? The developer comes to the city, show that they have a gap in in the cost of construction and the financing, and they need this much in TIF to make it happen. So they either arent having legitimate conversations with lenders or made too rosey of a proforma that has no basis in reality and under the microscope the lender says no thanks. Either way, getting $6.5 million promised to you in TIF money and then bailing on the project shows that maybe they werent that serious and maybe too many projects are getting TIF money.
    Or maybe some things changed.

  13. Default Re: The Hub

    Quote Originally Posted by onthestrip View Post
    Yes, these things can take time. But the developer has surely had conversations with lenders about what they will loan. Thats when the TIF negotiations start, right? The developer comes to the city, show that they have a gap in in the cost of construction and the financing, and they need this much in TIF to make it happen. So they either arent having legitimate conversations with lenders or made too rosey of a proforma that has no basis in reality and under the microscope the lender says no thanks. Either way, getting $6.5 million promised to you in TIF money and then bailing on the project shows that maybe they werent that serious and maybe too many projects are getting TIF money.
    From what I was told, the primary developer here WAS CoreBank and its owners and investors. I doubt they will be leasing space in Alley North anytime soon.

  14. #139

    Default Re: The Hub

    Pete, is this project officially dead?

  15. #140

    Default Re: The Hub

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    Pete, is this project officially dead?
    I'd say so since its for sale at $7.25 million.

    Easy prediction, the next person to put it under contract/buy it will also be looking for TIF money and most likely even more than what The Hub was asking for.

  16. #141

    Default Re: The Hub

    Quote Originally Posted by onthestrip View Post
    I'd say so since its for sale at $7.25 million.

    Easy prediction, the next person to put it under contract/buy it will also be looking for TIF money and most likely even more than what The Hub was asking for.
    Which they will only get if they build whatever they propose, just like the current owners.

  17. #142

    Default Re: The Hub

    It's a really good spot for housing.

    Something will eventually happen here.

  18. #143

    Default Re: The Hub

    Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
    Which they will only get if they build whatever they propose, just like the current owners.
    We all know this.

    But TIF money does have an affect on land prices, its skews the market imo. If there were no downtown TIFs, this property would never get close to $7.25 million that its asking. Same situation for many other downtown properties that are for sale.

  19. #144

    Default Re: The Hub

    Quote Originally Posted by onthestrip View Post
    We all know this.

    But TIF money does have an affect on land prices, its skews the market imo. If there were no downtown TIFs, this property would never get close to $7.25 million that its asking. Same situation for many other downtown properties that are for sale.
    Yes, in many cases, the amount of TIF is close to the markup charged by land speculators.

    So essentially, taxpayers are funding the high prices paid to people who just sit on property.

  20. #145

    Default Re: The Hub

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Yes, in many cases, the amount of TIF is close to the markup charged by land speculators.

    So essentially, taxpayers are funding the high prices paid to people who just sit on property.
    As a developer, I agree with Pete's take. A developer will do a "residual land value" calculation after inputting their minimum targeted return metrics into the proforma and then factoring in all potential income sources that flow to Net Operating Income (including property tax reimbursements - aka "pay as you go" TIF agreements). For A+ development sites that professional developers/investors will compete over, I'd say 80-90% of the present value of the TIF package will go to the seller.

    Whoever "believes" in the site the most (potential TIF agreement, potential apartment rents, how aggressive they can be on operating costs, etc.) will justify paying the most.

  21. #146

    Default Re: The Hub

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Yes, in many cases, the amount of TIF is close to the markup charged by land speculators.

    So essentially, taxpayers are funding the high prices paid to people who just sit on property.
    Hence why there needs to be something done to the process. Sitting on a property, then benefitting because of TIF isn't fair to the taxpayers. But I get it, since forcing development is also not fair.

  22. #147

    Default Re: The Hub

    Quote Originally Posted by onthestrip View Post
    We all know this.

    But TIF money does have an affect on land prices, its skews the market imo. If there were no downtown TIFs, this property would never get close to $7.25 million that its asking. Same situation for many other downtown properties that are for sale.
    $7.25 million which they may not get in the first place since the property in question is only for sale and unless there's a surprise we don't know about has not actually been sold yet.

    And on the other hand, if they do get that $7.25 million it means it gets sold to a developer who will have plans that justify the cost so why should I care.

  23. Default Re: The Hub

    I personally know a couple of the investors on this project. The last I was personally told, probably 6-8 months or so ago, was that they were having issues getting approval to close the alley that runs just to the west of The Garage Loft Apartments between NW 13th and NW 14th.

    I was told that one of the adjacent landowners, the Garage Loft or 1420 N Robinson, was protesting the closing of the alley and that The Hub needed that to happen in order to build the proposed apartments on the NW corner of the lot.

    That being said, this project was announced pre-pandemic, when building costs were much lower. I'm sure the announcement of Alley North led to them reconsidering the feasibility of this project too.

  24. Default Re: The Hub

    could it be built with just the midrise tower sans the apartments (or work the apartments in a different way)?
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  25. #150

    Default Re: The Hub

    That sucks to hear about this project being dead. I was really looking forward to it it would have completely changed the feel and it had a nice sized building as well.

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