Why I am voting No.

[bretthexum]

I wonder if anyone brought this up yet. Why does OKC have to foot the tax bill so all of those rich snobs from Edmond can watch the NBA?? Just kidding...

[andy157]

Apples and oranges. Nice try though.

Says you

[betts]

I agree with that completely.

Obviously, if I'm the business owners and the city is wanting to pay for things for my team, I'm not going to stop them!

I just think it's a wrong headed approach on the city's side to subsidize arena upgrades at the expense of those who will still have to pay to get in.

At least libraries and public schools are free.

How about the Bricktown restaurants, downtown bars, downtown hotels and businesses who would reap the benefits of an NBA team pony up the dough?

Again, no one is saying you can't feel this way. What I object to is people seeming to think that it's wrong for us as citizens to subsidize arena upgrades, but the owners should move the team here anyway and lose money. Is that any more fair.? Just say you don't want to subsidize the NBA and be done with it. And accept the fact that if this vote doesn't pass there will be no professional basketball in Oklahoma City. We can always drive to Tulsa to watch NBDL games and hopefully see a future star once in awhile.

[andy157]

Again, no one is saying you can't feel this way. What I object to is people seeming to think that it's wrong for us as citizens to subsidize arena upgrades, but the owners should move the team here anyway and lose money. Is that any more fair.? Just say you don't want to subsidize the NBA and be done with it. And accept the fact that if this vote doesn't pass there will be no professional basketball in Oklahoma City. We can always drive to Tulsa to watch NBDL games and hopefully see a future star once in awhile.

Not everyone, as you seem to think, correct me if I'm wrong, who is against this deal thinks it's wrong for us to upgrade the F.C.

[betts]

Not everyone, as you seem to think, correct me if I'm wrong, who is against this deal thinks it's wrong for us to upgrade the F.C.

I didn't say that either. I'm saying that people who want to vote "no" need to accept and understand that means "no NBA". There is no good reason for the NBA to move a team here if we don't pass this tax proposal, and it will not happen, unless there's secret city money the city council will pull out of a hat if it fails to pass. Maybe there is secret money. But that's the only way it will happen, and that will be the public's money as well.

I realize there are people who are in favor of upgrading the Ford Center and not building the practice facility, but I don't believe that option is going to be on the ballot. So, at least for now, a "no" vote means no Ford Center upgrades either. Perhaps the city would stick some upgrades in a MAPS3 proposal, but it will be too late for the NBA.

Everyone is free to vote however their conscience moves them, and I'm not saying otherwise. I just want people to realize what their vote means, and not have some pie-in-the-sky "rich philanthropist will bail us out" or "the NBA loves us so much they'll put a team here anyway" false hopes if they're voting no. Just be realistic about what you are voting for or against and what your vote means.

[Midtowner]

I agree with that completely.

Obviously, if I'm the business owners and the city is wanting to pay for things for my team, I'm not going to stop them!

I just think it's a wrong headed approach on the city's side to subsidize arena upgrades at the expense of those who will still have to pay to get in.

At least libraries and public schools are free.

How about the Bricktown restaurants, downtown bars, downtown hotels and businesses who would reap the benefits of an NBA team pony up the dough?

That would hold true if you had to pay to get into these games. Last I heard, the NBA was televised. Wouldn't it be nice to sit back, pop open a cream soda (you don't drink, do you?) and watch the OKC Sonics whoop up on Dallas, Houston, etc.?

While you may not be personally enjoying the roof gardens at the Ford Center, you will have every opportunity to enjoy the product that the team puts on the court. The best part? You won't have to pay a dime more than you're already paying in taxes to pull this off.

Clay Bennett, et. al. have shown that they really, really support Oklahoma City. They've put a substantial part of their net worths on the line. I think it's right for the city to pass this thing. This is an "atta boy" to Clay and company.

Their confidence in their hometown should be and will be rewarded. As far as Bricktown, etc., don't think for a second that they won't be coughing up some pretty significant money in the near future -- in the form of property taxes. When OKC starts to see some real tourist traffic, those businesses will flourish. In turn, property prices, which are all astronomical will skyrocket -- and the schools will be the winners there.

I'm generally part of the tinfoil hat brigade when it comes to these things. It's just that this time, I can see how this sort of public investment will really push OKC to the next level. I'm ready to see this happen. I hope my fellow citizens feel the same way on March 4th.

[Misty]

Some of us won't be able to vote at all since we are still having issues getting an Oklahoma ID/license and therefore can't register to vote here. Once again, I would like to really, really thank HB 1804. THANKS A LOT. So if this doesn't pass by one vote and we don't get the NBA you can officially blame HB 1804.

[solitude]

Some of us won't be able to vote at all since we are still having issues getting an Oklahoma ID/license and therefore can't register to vote here. Once again, I would like to really, really thank HB 1804. THANKS A LOT. So if this doesn't pass by one vote and we don't get the NBA you can officially blame HB 1804.

Misty, According to the Oklahoma County Election Board site, you can use the last 4 digits of your SS#, if you do not have state ID or DL, and swear you are a resident by your signature.
VOTER REGISTRATION IN OKLAHOMA

[metro]

ah, just go to the polling place and say your name is Smith or something else. Most people don't even end up voting, and unfortunately in this state, they rarely if ever I.D. you when you vote. Might as well make someones vote count!

[andy157]

I didn't say that either. I'm saying that people who want to vote "no" need to accept and understand that means "no NBA". There is no good reason for the NBA to move a team here if we don't pass this tax proposal, and it will not happen, unless there's secret city money the city council will pull out of a hat if it fails to pass. Maybe there is secret money. But that's the only way it will happen, and that will be the public's money as well.

I realize there are people who are in favor of upgrading the Ford Center and not building the practice facility, but I don't believe that option is going to be on the ballot. So, at least for now, a "no" vote means no Ford Center upgrades either. Perhaps the city would stick some upgrades in a MAPS3 proposal, but it will be too late for the NBA.

Everyone is free to vote however their conscience moves them, and I'm not saying otherwise. I just want people to realize what their vote means, and not have some pie-in-the-sky "rich philanthropist will bail us out" or "the NBA loves us so much they'll put a team here anyway" false hopes if they're voting no. Just be realistic about what you are voting for or against and what your vote means.

OK fair enough. You didn't say that. You are right, some of us are very much in favor of upgrading the F.C., NBA or no NBA. You are correct again about those of us who are not in favor of paying for a practice facility. But that does not mean I don't want the NBA. And your correct, voting against the P.F. will not be on the ballot. But it should have been. Thats where our Mayor, in my opinion, lacked guts. That way some of us could have voted yes for the F.C. and no for the P.F., and some of you could have voted yes for both. I'm sure you will disagree

[Luke]

What I object to is people seeming to think that it's wrong for us as citizens to subsidize arena upgrades, but the owners should move the team here anyway and lose money. Is that any more fair.?

Why do you say they'll lose money?

And accept the fact that if this vote doesn't pass there will be no professional basketball in Oklahoma City.

Well, I disagree. If Bennett, et al, really want the Sonics in OKC for altruistic reasons (because reading this thread you'd think they were doing us a favor and are prepared to lose tons of money because the NBA isn't profitable), then where there is a will (and large pocketbooks) there is a way.

[Luke]

Not everyone, as you seem to think, correct me if I'm wrong, who is against this deal thinks it's wrong for us to upgrade the F.C.

Exactly. I'm all for the Ford Center to be NBA ready so we can have an NBA team! I just think Bennett and company should pay for it. Or maybe an assemblage of Bricktown restaurants and downtown hotels and businesses could chip in.

[betts]

Exactly. I'm all for the Ford Center to be NBA ready so we can have an NBA team! I just think Bennett and company should pay for it. Or maybe an assemblage of Bricktown restaurants and downtown hotels and businesses could chip in.

Since the NBA isn't allowing Bennett and company to pay for the Ford Center updates, why don't you go talk to all of the owners of the Bricktown restaurants and downtown hotels, and see if you can raise the money by April? I'm solidly behind you trying, but I think I'll probably vote "yes" March 4th, just in case.

[betts]

OK fair enough. You didn't say that. You are right, some of us are very much in favor of upgrading the F.C., NBA or no NBA. You are correct again about those of us who are not in favor of paying for a practice facility. But that does not mean I don't want the NBA. And your correct, voting against the P.F. will not be on the ballot. But it should have been. Thats where our Mayor, in my opinion, lacked guts. That way some of us could have voted yes for the F.C. and no for the P.F., and some of you could have voted yes for both. I'm sure you will disagree

I'd be fine with people voting yes for the upgrades and no for the practice facility. I'm fine with people voting "no", if that's what they want to do. It's the inability or unwillingness to recognize the end result of that "no" vote I have a problem with. I don't know if the failure to separate the two options was because the mayor lacked guts or not. I would have liked to have been at, but was not privy to, any conversations between David Stern and Mayor Cornett, so I have no idea if Stern said the practice facility had to be part of the deal or not. I just know that there are many times when a candidate or a tax proposal is not precisely what I would like. In the end, I have to decide if it's better to vote for a candidate or a proposal that is not precisely what I want, or against. Everyone has to make that decision for themselves. I've seen many other cities build practice facilities, and so I understand that that seems to be part of the package deal. New Orleans had to agree to build a practice facility to get the Hornets, so we're not being treated differently or being asked to do more. New Orleans also upgraded their arena before they got the Hornets. I see the practice facility the way I see incentives for businesses. It may not benefit me directly, but having the team or the business benefits me because it benefits my community. So, I'm fine with it. That's just my opinion.

[Doug Loudenback]

I hope you already sent it.

Ditto.

[betts]

You'd be happy for everyone else to spend a few pennies a day for 15 months to duplicate that feeling again for you.

I just went to my first Redhawks game last summer. But I was happy to pay for the Bricktown Ballpark, because I thought it would be a great addition to downtown. I was happy to pay for renovations to the Civic Center for the same reason. I've never been in the downtown public library, but I was happy to pay for it. I am not a regular visitor at any of the city parks, but I was resoundingly in favor of the bond issue for the new downtown park. I've been to the Myriad Gardens once, but I'm happy to support it. I have no children in Oklahoma City public schools, nor have I ever had children in the Oklahoma City public schools, but I have paid property taxes without complaint for the last 20 years. To me, and I realize not everyone feels the same way, things that improve quality of life for citizens who reside in Oklahoma City are worth funding, even if I will never use them. I consider myself part of a community, which I consider a type of organism, and what's good for some part of the organism at least indirectly benefit other parts. I also see having an NBA team as being more than having 40+ games a year to go to. I see it as benefitting my community, for reasons I know you disagree with. But, in my opinion, having a team is good for my community, even if I never go to a game. So, I'm supporting it for the same reason I supported MAPS and MAPS for Kids, which to me is valid. I see the team, and an improved Ford Center as a boon for our city.

[betts]

Why do you say they'll lose money?

30% of all NBA teams lost money last year, and the teams most likely to lose money are the small market teams, especially if they don't make the playoffs. Please see post # 121 in this thread for quotes.

Well, I disagree. If Bennett, et al, really want the Sonics in OKC for altruistic reasons (because reading this thread you'd think they were doing us a favor and are prepared to lose tons of money because the NBA isn't profitable), then where there is a will (and large pocketbooks) there is a way.

Clearly you disagree. The question is, where is the data to support your opinion? Gut feelings and hope and five dollars will get you on the subway. If we had a subway. I guess aphorisms I learned from my husband, who's from NYC, don't work very well in Oklahoma City.

[Doug Loudenback]

Clay Bennett, et. al. have shown that they really, really support Oklahoma City. They've put a substantial part of their net worths on the line. I think it's right for the city to pass this thing. This is an "atta boy" to Clay and company.

Their confidence in their hometown should be and will be rewarded.

Midtowner, while I agreed with ALL of your message, the above part is so rarely stated that I wanted to give it singular attention. I completely agree.

[andy157]

Since the NBA isn't allowing Bennett and company to pay for the Ford Center updates, why don't you go talk to all of the owners of the Bricktown restaurants and downtown hotels, and see if you can raise the money by April? I'm solidly behind you trying, but I think I'll probably vote "yes" March 4th, just in case.

I've asked this question before, but it seems no one wants to answere it. Maybe you can. You claim the NBA isn't, or won't allow(ing) Bennett and Co. to pay for the F.C. updates ( or the cost of the P.F., which for some reason is never mentioned by the supporters of this issue). Why then did they allow him to shell out 100 Million of his own money to help pay for a new arena in Renton Washington?

[betts]

I've asked this question before, but it seems no one wants to answere it. Maybe you can. You claim the NBA isn't, or won't allow(ing) Bennett and Co. to pay for the F.C. updates ( or the cost of the P.F., which for some reason is never mentioned by the supporters of this issue). Why then did they allow him to shell out 100 Million of his own money to help pay for a new arena in Renton Washington?

I suspect, but am guessing, that it's because the arena in Seattle was projected to cost $450 million, whereas the Ford center upgrades are estimated to cost $100 million. Also, Seattle has a team in place, and is a far larger city with a far larger television market, and I believe there's more leniency in funding in established NBA cities. As I said above, New Orleans had to upgrade their arena and agree to build a practice facility before they got the Hornets.

[andy157]

That would hold true if you had to pay to get into these games. Last I heard, the NBA was televised. Wouldn't it be nice to sit back, pop open a cream soda (you don't drink, do you?) and watch the OKC Sonics whoop up on Dallas, Houston, etc.?

While you may not be personally enjoying the roof gardens at the Ford Center, you will have every opportunity to enjoy the product that the team puts on the court. The best part? You won't have to pay a dime more than you're already paying in taxes to pull this off.

Clay Bennett, et. al. have shown that they really, really support Oklahoma City. They've put a substantial part of their net worths on the line. I think it's right for the city to pass this thing. This is an "atta boy" to Clay and company.

Their confidence in their hometown should be and will be rewarded. As far as Bricktown, etc., don't think for a second that they won't be coughing up some pretty significant money in the near future -- in the form of property taxes. When OKC starts to see some real tourist traffic, those businesses will flourish. In turn, property prices, which are all astronomical will skyrocket -- and the schools will be the winners there.

I'm generally part of the tinfoil hat brigade when it comes to these things. It's just that this time, I can see how this sort of public investment will really push OKC to the next level. I'm ready to see this happen. I hope my fellow citizens feel the same way on March 4th.

Let me say up front, I don't dislike Bennett and Co.. Yes they have been wonerful local and corporate citizens. Nevertheless. What if the citizens Sea. Wash. or the Washington Legislature would have built them their new arena, would they still be moving to OKC?

I think not. I think they would be staying put. Then at a later date and time, sold the team for a tidy profit. Why, if in fact it's always been their motive and civic pride agenda, to bring the NBA to OKC did they offer to stay in Seattle? Was that some sort of smoke screen? Did they know before hand for a fact their offer to stay was going to be rejected? Maybe you and/or others may know. In my opinion OKC was their fall back plan-B. Yes it is true they most likely can make more money in Sea. If their offer to stay would have been accepted they stood to make alot of money. Yes they may not make as much money here, thats why they demand that the citizens agree to become their partners with our tax dollars. Not for the reason of cutting their losses, but for the reason of maintaining their future profits

[Doug Loudenback]

I planned to respond.

1) I didn't vote. I think this was when the original MAPS was passed, right? And that was in 1995, right? I didn't live in OKC and I was only 15.
2) I'm not even sure when that was, so no I didn't vote then either.
3) I would vote no.
To me it's totally a principle. I am a HUGE fan of OKC. I want the absolute best. I want the Olympics here in 2024, a NFL team an NBA team, an MLS team. I want it all!

The role of the government, however, is where I disagree with some of you. I don't believe it is the role of the local government to subsidize business ventures despite the payoff it would reap for the City. I believe if the private sector believes OKC is a strong enough market for X, Y, or Z, then they should be willing to front the capital to do it.

Thanks for your reply, Luke. The initial 5 year penny sales tax passed in 12/1993. Before it expired, it became evident that the amount of money generated would be insufficient to do the arena and perhaps a couple of others (or, at least, do them as planned ... memory lapse for the moment). The gutsy 6 month tax extension passed 12/1998. Without the leadership of Mayor Ron Norick, later Mayor Kirk Humphreys, and perhaps without the ghost of Neal Horton hanging around (he was Bricktown's grand visionary who died a pauper and did not live to see the result of the seeds he had planted), the Oklahoma City you are enjoying today would not exist.

Talk about the role of government all you want, but, without the role of government being played out vis a vis the model of Ron Norick, today in the hands of Mick Cornett, you'd not be enjoying the vibrancy this city enjoys today, not only of downtown and Bricktown and the river, but more importantly the enormous change of perception of what Oklahoma Citians thought about themselves. In the past 2+ decades, Oklahoma City has gone from a city apologizing for itself to a vibrant and growing city busting its buttons with pride.

I like that "role of government" and it want it to continue into the NEXT century! Principle is a good thing. Figuring out which "principles" to pursue is not easy. I know that this is easy for me to say, but, I'll say it anyway: "Trust me" when I say, but for the role of government that has existed since 1993, you would NOT likely be the huge fan that you are of Oklahoma City today, because the Oklahoma City you know today would not exist. I want my children and grandchildren to continue to reap the benefits of the "role of government" that emerged with Mayor Ron Norick. Mistakes will be made, they always are. But, pursuit of the vision of what this city can be will be the driving force, and the March 4 vote is part of that vision.

My question #3 was,

3) Were the NBA not involved in the present mix, and we had no expectation of getting an NBA team at all, would you be for or against the March 4 tax if the Practice Facility were not included in what would be financed?

to which you replied that you would vote no, even if the NBA was stripped from the mix and we were only talking about improving the existing arena, making it better for ourselves and our descendants, just ourselves. In other words, the arena upgrade would just be for "us" and not for any "corporate business interests."

I'm seriously saddened to hear your choice, because, at your age, you and your ideas represent what may lie ahead for this city after I'm dead but while my children and grandchildren survive. I want them to share in what has become and what this city will yet come to be.

If you are representative of your generation, a good chance exists that they will not likely enjoy the excitement that comes with the kind of rebirth and renewal that has been my profound pleasure to experience during the past two decades. I want them to be part of that on-going process and progress.

"Principle" is very important but figuring out what/which "principles" one wants to stand his/her ground on is not so simple. In 1998, then City Council member Frosty (edit: I first said, "Troy," a mistake ... "Peak" is correct) strongly opposed the 6 month tax extension which resulted in today's Ford Center, based on "principle." For me, I am glad that his version of "principle" did not carry the day because if it did you and I would not have a sports arena called the Ford Center and the March 4 vote would not even be being discussed today. Kinda like The Twilight Zone kind of stuff, isn't it?

[andy157]

I suspect, but am guessing, that it's because the arena in Seattle was projected to cost $450 million, whereas the Ford center upgrades are estimated to cost $100 million. Also, Seattle has a team in place, and is a far larger city with a far larger television market, and I believe there's more leniency in funding in established NBA cities. As I said above, New Orleans had to upgrade their arena and agree to build a practice facility before they got the Hornets.

Why did the Hornets Move from Charlotte (sp)?

[andy157]

Thanks for your reply, Luke. The initial 5 year penny sales tax passed in 12/1993. Before it expired, it became evident that the amount of money generated would be insufficient to do the arena and perhaps a couple of others (or, at least, do them as planned ... memory lapse for the moment). The gutsy 6 month tax extension passed 12/1998. Without the leadership of Mayor Ron Norick, later Mayor Kirk Humphreys, and perhaps without the ghost of Neal Horton hanging around (he was Bricktown's grand visionary who died a pauper and did not live to see the result of the seeds he had planted), the Oklahoma City you are enjoying today would not exist.

Talk about the role of government all you want, but, without the role of government being played out vis a vis the model of Ron Norick, today in the hands of Mick Cornett, you'd not be enjoying the vibrancy this city enjoys today, not only of downtown and Bricktown, but more importantly the enormous change of perception of what Oklahoma Citians though about themselves. In the past 2+ decades, Oklahoma City has gone from a city apologizing for itself to a vibrant and growing city busting its buttons with pride.

I like that "role of government" and it want it to continue into the NEXT century! Principle is a good thing. Figuring out which "principles" to pursue is not easy. I know that this is easy for me to say, but, I'll say it anyway: "Trust me" when I say, but for the role of government that has existed since 1993, you would NOT likely be the huge fan that you are of Oklahoma City today, because the Oklahoma City you know today would not exist. I want my children and grandchildren to continue to reap the benefits of the "role of government" that emerged with Mayor Ron Norick. Mistakes will be made, they always are. But, pursuit of the vision of what this city can be will be the driving force, and the March 4 vote is part of that vision.

My question #3 was,


to which you replied that you would vote no, even if the NBA was stripped from the mix and we were only talking about improving the existing arena, making it better for ourselves and our descendants, just ourselves. In other words, the arena upgrade would just be for "us" and not for any "corporate business interests."

I'm seriously saddened to hear your choice, because, at your age, you and your ideas represent what may lie ahead for this city after I'm dead but while my children and grandchildren survive. I want them to share in what has become and what this city will yet come to be.

If you are representative of your generation, a good chance exists that they will not likely enjoy the excitement that comes with the kind of rebirth and renewal that has been my profound pleasure to experience during the past two decades. I want them to be part of that on-going process and progress.

"Principle" is very important but figuring out what/which "principles" one wants to stand his/her ground on is not so simple. In 1998, then City Council member Frosty Troy strongly opposed the 6 month tax extension which resulted in today's Ford Center, based on "principle." For me, I am glad that his version of "principle" did not carry the day because if it did you and I would not a a sports arena called the Ford Center and the March 4 vote would not even be being discussed today. Kinda like The Twilight Zone kind of stuff, isn't it?

Accept this correction with my utmost respect. I wish I knew half as much about OKC and it's history as you do. But it was Peak not Troy.

[Doug Loudenback]

Accept this correction with my utmost respect. I wish I knew half as much about OKC and it's history as you do. But it was Peak not Troy.

Of course! Sorry about the mistake.