Why I am voting No.

[andy157]

I don't know how you can say the Sonics have nothing to do with this. If it wasn't for the Sonics, there would be no purpose to upgrading the arena.

The owners financing the arena is not an option we are presented with...yet. If the "Nos" have it, then maybe our local home town businessmen will do everything possible to make sure the opportunity doesn't slip through their hands. Or, they'll look to another city where they don't have to spend money. We'll see.

It's mind boggling to me how anyone can say that the owners have nothing to do with any of this. How come the owners of the Sonics had the blessing of Stern and the NBA to offer up 100 Million to the City of Renton, Washington for their share of a 530 Million arena, yet they are strictly forbiden from contributing a penny to OKC. Lets see the 100 Million offer to Renton was contingent on the owners recieving all of the revenue for the naming rights. Which amounted to 150-200 Million. Why can't they do that here? Oh I forgot, Ford has already paid for those rights. I would also like for someone to please explain to me the pecking order of the NBA. I know you've got your owners, you got your Bd. of Governors, and you got your Commissioner. Anyone else? If not then who controls these three groups, and who do these three groups control.
Who appoints the Gov's and who appoints the Commish? Anyone know?

[Luke]

Since it's not even known which team will end up in Oklahoma City, it's pretty difficult for Clay Bennett to make demands.

I'll bet if he and his partners foot the bill for the upgrades, that would be an incredible incentive for the board of Governors to approve quickly. Then we wouldn't even have to do this song and dance vote of the people thing. Easy!

And why would they want to bring a team here that they've already spent $400 million on if their own city is too ungrateful to make it happen for a few pennies a day per person. I'd go to Kansas City too, and thumb my nose at Oklahoma City. We will see.

Jeez. Leave it to the taxpayers of OKC? How about the big corporations like Devon, Chesapeake, MidFirst and BOk subsidize the upgrades. They would no doubt love to woo employees with a higher quality of living. And the citizens of OKC would reap the benefits.

So, if I have a business idea that would bring millions to the metro, can we put it to a vote of the people to pass it?

[betts]

I'll bet if he and his partners foot the bill for the upgrades, that would be an incredible incentive for the board of Governors to approve quickly. Then we wouldn't even have to do this song and dance vote of the people thing. Easy!



Jeez. Leave it to the taxpayers of OKC? How about the big corporations like Devon, Chesapeake, MidFirst and BOk subsidize the upgrades. They would no doubt love to woo employees with a higher quality of living. And the citizens of OKC would reap the benefits.

So, if I have a business idea that would bring millions to the metro, can we put it to a vote of the people to pass it?

You clearly don't understand. I guess that's OK, because at this point, I'm guessing it's annoying those who do. So, for the last time. The NBA will not allow the Sonics owners to fund the arena upgrades. We either do it ourselves, or we will not get an NBA team. Period.

[Luke]

Why not?

[betts]

Ask David Stern. Perhaps he's worried that the Sonics owners (if that's the team we get) have already spent too much money, and he wants Oklahoma City to show they'll support the team. Perhaps because no one is asking the owners of the Blazers and the Yard Dawgz to help fund the upgrade. Perhaps because Oklahoma City owns the arena and Aubrey McClendon and Clay Bennett do not. Perhaps because there will be many events every year in the Ford Center that have nothing to do with the Sonics.

[Luke]

Ask David Stern. Perhaps he's worried that the Sonics owners (if that's the team we get) have already spent too much money, and he wants Oklahoma City to show they'll support the team. Perhaps because no one is asking the owners of the Blazers and the Yard Dawgz to help fund the upgrade. Perhaps because Oklahoma City owns the arena and Aubrey McClendon and Clay Bennett do not. Perhaps because there will be many events every year in the Ford Center that have nothing to do with the Sonics.

I guess the questions is, how do you know the NBA would say "NO" to Bennett's team if he and his team offered to do the upgrades? Have NBA officials said "No, they cannot pay for the upgrades, the city of Oklahoma City has to." ? That doesn't sound right.

Also, the Yard Dawgz or Blazers shouldn't pay for the upgrades either. They would reap little if nothing from the upgrades. Likewise, the people of OKC who would never go to a game should not be forced to pay for the upgrades.

Let those who will reap the benefits pay for the upgrades.

[fsusurfer]

Pretty interesting arguments on both sides of the table if you ask me. I see both points. If I wasn't an NBA fan, I don't think I'd be happy about being taxed for something that dosent matter to me one bit. I wonder why they cant include a extra charge on the tickets. Then again, I am a proponet of not being taxed for a lot of crap that we are already taxed for. Not to mention, if a certain someone is elected president, your going to see a lot more middle-upper class taxes going up.

[Chefdavies]

Its kinda gettin old hearing ppl talk about " let the ppl that are going to use it pay for it." Does this mean bc I dont use the parks in edmond I shouldn't have to pay for them? This thinking just doesn't sound right to me. There is alot of positive to come from the vote. I said it once before, we vote no, we are voting no to any other professional team that is thinking oh coming to OKC. We will ALWAYS be stuck in the "2nd level sports city" stigma. (my personal thought there). I understand the taxes, I understand ppl want the owners to pay, I get it. Just the rational of "I dont use it, I shouldnt pay for it is outdated, and borberline childish." Sit down and think what you don't use and you still pay for it. Then think what would happen if everyone thought that way. What would this city have that it wouldn't if everyone followed this ideal. Plain and simple, dont like it dont vote for it, but dont get mad if OKC never gets the chance again.

[andy157]

Way to sum it up Kerry!!!



andy157, As others have pointed out, he sold the Storm for $10 million a month or two back. A good move in my opinion. Bennet's Group's losses plus legal fees this year are probably around $20 million or so. WNBA doesn't really make any money, the selling price just reflected that. This is a good way the group can help subsidize losses/costs to hold out until 2010 if need be AND it provides goodwill and a bargaining tool in dealing with the City of Seattle. Keep the WNBA and Sonics naming rights in Seattle, Seattle might agree to a buyout (or have no choice if the judge grants they can move early). Seattle is more happy with the NBA than they would have been otherwise. Bennet and Co. end up just cutting waste/losses and focus on the cream of the crop to bring to OKC. Again, NBA games ARE NOT AND WILL NOT BE the only events at the Ford Center. There are dozens of other types of events that take place their on a regular basis, and those events as well as the community as a whole will benefit, regardless of usage.

Luke, in theory, YES, McClendon and Ward could finance the arena alone. But are you suggesting or saying if you were in their shoes that you would? Meaning if you're net worth is $1.6billion, you just bought a team for $150-200million (each), plus you expect them to pay $50-75million (each) for an arena upgrade, plus all their other investments, AND still pay some of Oklahoma's highest paying jobs (thousands of them)? To do things on this scale, they have to either finance (meaning take on substantial debt on a venture they will probably lose money on) or liquidate assets (sell stocks). I don't know about you, but selling half a billion dollars worth of stocks (thus potentially losing majority stake in their own companies, Chesapeake and Riata), doesn't seem like good business sense. If these folks (which again, employ thousands of high paying jobs in local economy), lost majority control of their local companies (in a vulnerable market), we could end up losing another major energy player to Houston. Do you suggest this is a good idea to gamble on?

Metro, why is it, that you, and every other supporter of this deal feel the need to continually point out to me that the F.C. can, and will be used for other events beside the NBA. I know already. Can you make the same it's going to benefit everyone claim regarding the practice facility?

Here's the deal. All of us, me included, can ramble on and on over this issue until HELL freezes over. This late in the game, with few exceptions, nobody is going to change anyones mind. I don't need to be told what will, or won't happen with a yes vote, or a no vote.

You could hate BB and vote yes, I could love BB and vote no. I say this only as an example with no insinuations toward you. I see this as blackmail, extortion, blah-blah-blah, lets say so do you, I understand the upside, and the economic pluses, and I know you do. You hold your nose and vote yes. I can't believe anyone would do that. I throw the baby out with the bath water, and vote no. You don't understand why I don't see the big picture. Thats why were going to vote. If the vote is yes I'll not whine and cry, or move away, or shop in Moore or Edmond.

If the vote is no, yes it may be a death sentence for the NBA. Maybe it will only be a set back for you and those like you. But you will continue in your efforts to get a NBA team thats fine I would understand and respect you for that. I may help you. For the record I know quite a bit about sales taxes and the revenue they generate. They have been my sole sorce of income for 24 years. But I still got to vote No.

[Luke]

Does this mean bc I dont use the parks in edmond I shouldn't have to pay for them?

Why not? They could either be funded by with an entrance fee or more likely sponsored by corporations or better yet, neighborhood associations, drives or fundraisers.

There is alot of positive to come from the vote.

I actually don't disagree with that at all. I know that the results of a "Yes" vote will be great.

I said it once before, we vote no, we are voting no to any other professional team that is thinking oh coming to OKC. We will ALWAYS be stuck in the "2nd level sports city" stigma.

I wholeheartedly disagree. The NBA KNOWS OKC can support a team. It's just nobody wants to foot the bill for it, so they pass it on to the citizens.

"I dont use it, I shouldnt pay for it is outdated, and borberline childish." Sit down and think what you don't use and you still pay for it. Then think what would happen if everyone thought that way. What would this city have that it wouldn't if everyone followed this ideal.

Contrary to being childish, the responsible mature thing to do would be to let those who have ideas and want to pursue them, not to force everyone to do it. Let those who are interested get involved. The private sector typically always produces a better quality product at a lower cost than public funds could ever produce. Subsidizing always ends up costing more. It just seems to cost less, but that's merely because it is force-distributed to EVERYONE.

And I won't get mad if "OKC never gets the chance again" because that isn't true. OKC will ALWAYS have the chance. As long as businessman with civic pride want to give us a chance, then we'll get a team.

[Doug Loudenback]

I guess the questions is, how do you know the NBA would say "NO" to Bennett's team if he and his team offered to do the upgrades? Have NBA officials said "No, they cannot pay for the upgrades, the city of Oklahoma City has to." ? That doesn't sound right.

Also, the Yard Dawgz or Blazers shouldn't pay for the upgrades either. They would reap little if nothing from the upgrades. Likewise, the people of OKC who would never go to a game should not be forced to pay for the upgrades.

Let those who will reap the benefits pay for the upgrades.

Luke, I hesitate to reply since everything you mention has been discussed before, in this thread and in the longer one, but ...

1) One cannot KNOW the NBA would say "No" to the Sonics relocation if the March 4 vote fails. One DOES know what the mayor said, that without an affirmative vote, Oklahoma City could kiss the NBA goodbye (paraphrasing liberally). His statements, and the urgency of the vote, were made after he'd been in communications with the NBA (which, I presume, means David Stern, perhaps among others). This wasn't a "Bennett et al" driven requirement, it was an NBA one.

2) Even if what I said in 1) is so, that doesn't address your question, which is, "WHAT IF Bennett et al. said, "Hey, NBA, WE'LL pay the freight" (over and above what that group has already paid to purchase the Sonics franchise and to carry forward with what it has already done and paid for in Washington state), not to mention the litigation and other grief endured there pending the Sonics relocation to Oklahoma City.

What would happen if Bennett et al. even did still more than what they've already done and said, "We'll pay for the arena upgrade and practice facility -- and yes we'll put a bow around it and make a gift to Oklahoma City, absorbing all the costs of team purchase, relocation, litigation costs, arena upgrade, practice facility, etc."

That is your question.

As to the answer, one can only guess. Mine is that Stern sees this vote not just as to whether Okc will finance the arena upgrades (which we'd probably do anyway, sooner or later) and/or pay for the practice facility if a contract is signed, but at least as important if not more important, "How does Oklahoma City really feel about getting an NBA team ... is it just a nice feel-good wish, or is the city, namely the fan base, really committed over the long haul. If that's so, he'd not learn much about that if Bennett et al. just coughed up the cash and went way beyond the pale in being good corporate citizens. That wouldn't tell a single thing about the average Doug & Jill's, or Luke's, commitment about OKC being an NBA franchise over the long haul. I don't think that Stern wants to move a team here, strategically, and have a New Orleans or a Memphis situation on his hands and in short order find that he'd need to be looking at the possibility of yet another relocation down the line.

3) You opine that people who don't go to games shouldn't have to pay for the upgrades. In the 1st place, the arena was bare-bones financed in the 1st place, just to get it "in place." The bulk of the vote (about $100M) is just to make the arena what we'd (some, anyway) want it to be and which was not possible to have been done earlier. As to the "arena" facet of the vote, the same logic you suggest would have been likewise applicable to including the arena in the original MAPS proposal in the first place, which included 2 sports facilities, but, even more, in the MAPS 6 month extension which occurred when funding for the arena ran short. Had the 6 month extension failed, the arena would not have been built at all.

Volumes could be written on that subject. But, to keep it simple, IF we had no Ford Center right now, would you feel the same about whether to publicly finance such a thing, in the first place? If so, there's not anything I could possibly say that would be something other than the wheel spinning around and around and around because that particular question is many years old by now. Maybe you don't think that a vital sports arena is important to the city as a whole (whether you set foot in the arena at all), and that's fine. Others, perhaps you, saw the Bricktown Ballpark in the same way. Others, perhaps you, voted "No" on the 6-month sales tax extension to pay for the arena several years back. Most others voted, "Yes." For me, I voted "Yes" for both the original MAPS and the 6 month extension and have never regretted it, even though it was not until the 1st Hornets pre-season game in OKC that I ever set foot in that arena. Not a single time. Still, before that game, I was nonetheless pleased with what our city leaders had persuaded me to do on those earlier votes.

Last, you say, "Let those who will reap the benefits pay for the upgrades." I agree, but not the way that you mean. I, you, and our whole city will benefit from these upgrades. Some, myself included, see that all citizens have and will reap the benefits of ... the Bricktown Ballpark ... the sports arena which became the Ford Center in the 1st place ... and its upgrade in the 2nd. Not all agree, but that's pretty much what it boils down to, I think. You may be quite content with Oklahoma City not having such facilities, and that's fair. But, that's not me.

[bornhere]

There's no reason why the Sonics partners or any other franchise should be asked to fund the improvements to a city-owned building, unless there is a quid pro quo of reduced rents or, had they not already been granted, naming rights. Or perhaps some other incentive.

Personally, I think they'll get the reduced rents - or no rents - in any event. We need to show the world we're 'open for business,' as Mayor Humphreys used to say, and the way we do that is to tax Target sales clerks and 7-Eleven managers and school teachers and cab drivers to build elegant sky boxes and suites for the half-dozen richest people in the area.

However, I don't think it's foolish to suggest various corporate entities subsidize this project just for the free publicity. That's how we funded the state capitol dome, after all, along with a number of other projects. That would at least lower the tab for the taxpayers.

Again, I'm fine with saying 'no' to the NBA, period. I'm not going to step off an airplane in some other city and hang my head in shame because I imagine others in the terminal are going to be whispering about my '2nd level sports' stigma.

[Easy180]

And I won't get mad if "OKC never gets the chance again" because that isn't true. OKC will ALWAYS have the chance. As long as businessman with civic pride want to give us a chance, then we'll get a team.

Completely disagree...Look at the sh** storm Bennett and crew are going through and the half billion they have shelled out to get OKC an NBA team

All that and the taxpayers vote down a pitiful 15 month one cent tax extension that mostly goes to enhance fan experience?

That would have to be a helluva lot of civic pride for another group to try it again

[Kerry]

another group

What other group? These are the 8 wealthiest people in the OKC. Does anyone seriously think number 9 thru 16, who ever they are, would even attempt it?

[Karried]

I can't believe this is even such an issue.

Oklahoma is being given a golden opportunity, one not easily awarded to most places... and we have people refusing to pay a penny sales tax ( one they have already been paying and I'm guessing, haven't missed one bit) based on a minor sticking point, in my opinion...

It's so frustrating!

Another missed opportunity for Oklahoma... same old thinking, same old results.

[CCOKC]

Let's hope it is not a missed opportunity at all. If the vote passes then it could be considered an opportunity gained.

[Karried]

That's exactly what I'm hoping for... I will absolutely die if we lost this opportunity over a freaking penny sales tax. I will move away.

To Seattle...lol

[metro]

What other group? These are the 8 wealthiest people in the OKC. Does anyone seriously think number 9 thru 16, who ever they are, would even attempt it?

Actually, that's not true, but your point is still heard. David Green (owner of Hobby Lobby, Inc.) is another Oklahoma City billionaire (not in the basketball group) as well as several others in OKC that are wealthier than some in the OKC Basketball Club.

[betts]

That's exactly what I'm hoping for... I will absolutely die if we lost this opportunity over a freaking penny sales tax. I will move away.

To Seattle...lol

Haha! I may move away as well. If I live in Atlanta, at least I get to see one of my children regularly, and I've got the NBA, NFL, and MLB to choose from. I'm less than a day's drive from the beach and my husband could happily do his kayaking on all the Georgia rivers. If Oklahoma City is so short sighted as to refuse a chance to get an NBA team, it's hard to imagine things are going to change around here that much. Next the anti-tax people will start complaining about Core to Shore.

[FritterGirl]

Actually, that's not true, but your point is still heard. David Green (owner of Hobby Lobby, Inc.) is another Oklahoma City billionaire (not in the basketball group) as well as several others in OKC that are wealthier than some in the OKC Basketball Club.

You are right, but many of those people, including Green, have proven that their interests lie elsewhere. What we really have here is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. If we don't take it now, it may never happen again. Just because others can afford it doesn't mean they will step up in this manner and be willing to take the same risk, as well as the public scrutiny.

There's no pro basketball fairly floating about saying "Oh, let's put a team in OKC, and even if the people vote down the tax initiative, we'll put it there anyway." Nope. This is our once-and-only shot. Our Hail Mary from Half Court!!! There's a saying that luck happens when preparedness meets opportunity. Our opportunity is here. We just need to prepare.

[betts]

The fact that owning a basketball team is reasonably likely to be a losing proposition means that a lot of people aren't going to be too interested in buying one. Here's a quote from a group of the smaller market NBA owners:

"Back in September(2006), a group of eight NBA owners, including Blazers' owner Paul Allen, that signed a letter that called for more sharing of revenue among the 30 NBA teams in order to help small-market teams gain better financial footing. The Seattle Times' Percy Allen wrote about this in November, quoting from the letter:
'If appropriately managed teams can't break even, let alone make a profit, we have an economic system that requires correction. The needed correction is serious revenue sharing not just modest revenue assistance and we urge you to address this issue on an urgent basis this year.'"

The issue was not addressed. You obviously have to have a passion for basketball or for your city if you're willing to take that kind of a risk. Here's a quote from David Stern about NBA teams in general, and Clay Bennett specifically:

"Mr. Stern: We have lots of teams that aren't profitable. And the last one just sold for $350 million."

So, this idea that Bennett et al are going to move the Sonics here and make pots of money is simply an opinion, and one without much basis in fact. Why should they move the team here, with that kind of risk, if the citizens of Oklahoma City won't pass an 18 month penny tax? This group has been a great group of supporters of Oklahoma City, but they've done enough already, in my opinion.

[bornhere]

If appropriately managed teams can't break even, let alone make a profit, maybe they need to be in some other business.

[betts]

If appropriately managed teams can't break even, let alone make a profit, maybe they need to be in some other business.

It's easy to make a statement like that when you don't care about sports. If you found them enjoyable, you might feel differently. Seattle supposedly cares so little about the Sonics that they're fine with the team leaving rather than build them an arena. However, if you suddenly yanked the Sonics, Mariners and Seahawks out of Seattle, I guarantee massive howls of protest. Tell people in New York that you're moving the Yankees, Mets, Jets, Giants, Knicks, Rangers, etc, and those responsible would probably be shot. From time immemorial, people have enjoyed sports. Especially in places like Oklahoma, where you don't have mountains or oceans for leisure time activities, people enjoy created activities, many of which are active or spectator sports. Having no sports would negatively affect quality of life for a lot of people.

My husband has never been a basketball fan, nor is he very interested in spectator sports. When I found out the Hornets were coming here, I told him I wanted season tickets for my birthday, Christmas, anniversary, Valentines, whatever presents, and he told me he might go to a game or two. I got two tickets anyway, and before a month was over, he was going to every game. This winter, when he could no longer go sailing or ride his bike in the evenings, he got pretty grumpy. His comment was "I hate television, and I can't find a good book to read. What have we done in the evenings in years past?" i reminded him that the two winters before we'd had Hornets games several times a week, and he commented, "I didn't mind not having an NBA team before the Hornets came, but now I realize how much fun the team was, and what a great thing it is to have something different to do in the winter, especially in the evenings when it's too dark to do much outside."

No one is saying having a team here is going to vault us up to compete with New York City. But, for those of us who have always liked sports, and for a surprising number of people who thought they didn't like basketball, having the Hornets here was a great source of enjoyment and pride. I'm happy to spend a few pennies a day for 15 months to duplicate that feeling again, and I think having a team here would be good for my city.

[bornhere]

I'm happy to spend a few pennies a day for 15 months to duplicate that feeling again, and I think having a team here would be good for my city.

You'd be happy for everyone else to spend a few pennies a day for 15 months to duplicate that feeling again for you.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

You'd be happy for everyone else to spend a few pennies a day for 15 months to duplicate that feeling again for you.

I watch sports about as much as I watch fleas copulating, and I'll probably never go to a game unless somebody gives me a ticket and I'm REALLY bored. Basketball is well below badminton and the AARP's annual Shuffleboard Championships on my list of things to watch on TV. I really, REALLY don't like basketball. But I'll vote yes and pay the money because I want to see this city step up. If it's basketball that provides the catalyst to get people interested in, involved in, and taking pride in their own city (not that they aren't now, but you can't tell me that downtown wasn't a hoppin' fun place to be on game nights with the Hornets and had people talking about the city like they were proud of it for once)...I'll help pay for it. I really don't see a downside in bringing a team here....A few pennies for a couple of years to bring that kind of civic pride and recognition is a small price to pay in my opinion.