Holiday Inn Express

[solitude]

Thanks, Doug. Actually, I think Blackburn's comments didn't address ever tearing down buildings, but about historic Bricktown proper, I think his thoughts were pretty clear:

"This building may not be important individually,” Blackburn said. "But like the Walnut Street bridge, which may not have been significant individually, it is part of the urban landscape that gives all the properties scale, texture and variety. And every piece you lose of that context, you're losing that texture and variety and overall of the district.”

Bricktown, he said, is special because it is a collection of historic buildings.

"Take enough pieces out of that mosaic and you lose your focus,” Blackburn said. "I'm not saying this is going to diminish the context of Bricktown ... but each time you chip away a little bit more at the overall fabric, it affects everything else."

[Steve]

I would like to feature some of these comments in my column for Tuesday. I don't need full names, but I do at least need a real first name. If any of you are ok with that and can help me out on first names (Doug, I've got your name of course), please email me at slackmeyer@oklahoman.com.
- Steve

[Patrick]

Back before Spaghetti Warehouse moved in, that building that houses it now wasn't all that attractive. Afterall, these are just warehouse buildings. But, they opted to renovate the old historic warehouse and locate within its walls. That's what makes Bricktown so special is most of the restaurants chose to refurbish the old warehouses.

I don't think it's asking too much of proposed developers to do like everyone else has done in Bricktown, and adapt the current Steffan's Building into use as a hotel. That would make it even more special. When people go to Bricktown they think of old historic warehouses, not new, 21st century hotels. This hotel would be much better located within an old early 20th century warehouse building.

I don't think they should tear down anymore historic structures in Bricktown, in favor of modern 21st century buildings. The historic warehouses in Bricktown are what give the area its character.

The McDonalds was completely different, because it didn't involve tearing down a historic warehouse.

[Patrick]

Looking at the pictures everyone has posted of the old Steffan's dairy building, it doesn't look like it's in bad shape. Just replace the glass blocks with clear windows and build out hotel room within the building.

It's a non issue.

Either build the hotel within the old Steffan's Building, like so many other restaurants have done in Bricktown, or build an all brick new building on a parking lot in Bricktown.

[David Pollard]

I am flabergasted that anyone is even CONSIDERING tearing down a building that is so obviously part of the urban fabric of Bricktown!

The earlier suggestion of incorporating the existing building (or at least the facade) into the new building is an excellent one. Here where I live, (Europe)this is done on a very regular basis and it is a treat to see how much care goes into such an operation. Granted this is going to add to the costs of the new Holiday Inn, but perhaps the city can sweeten it a bit with a small tax incentive for adding to the preservation of the district. This would not be just a commercial coup for Holiday Inn, but ultimately more stay-overs in downtown will add to the tax base itself. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

[flintysooner]

There is a significant economic issue. The justification for the project, as I understand it, is to provide rooms in a target price range. That constraint may or may not be appropriate but it will constrain the total development cost of the project. I really don't know whether having cheaper rooms in Bricktown is good or not.

Refurbishing the existing structure may prove too expensive for the same constraint. Buildings in the US in general and certainly in that area of Bricktown may not be satisfactory for rehabilitation. In Europe buildings are typically built with longer planned life expectancies.

Another economic consideration is that projects all across the country are being canceled or delayed because of economic uncertainty and credit issues. Oklahoma is not immune. So just having the possibility of a viable project now is not inconsequential.

Bricktown projects should be mostly brick, architecture should be complementary to the area, and use should also complement and contribute to the entire development.

All of these issues have to be balanced and require more specific and detailed information than I have read.

Other communities and developments contend with the same issues. Sometimes it is possible to provide incentives in order to get upgraded architecture or help with rehabilitation. Sometimes projects just don't fit.

Certainly the rendering does not appear to be in keeping with the desired Bricktown architecture.

[CuatrodeMayo]

I would disagree. Buildings built during the time Bricktown was built, are of similar logevity of European buildings. The existing building would still be structurally sound and usable long after a Holiday Inn has reached its designed lifespan (the Holiday Inn would be built of 2X4s and foamboard and with only a 25 year lifespan).

[flintysooner]

You disagree that I don't know? I can assure you that I do not know the condition of the building or whether it could be rehabilitated for use as this project and if it could be what that would cost and then if that wojuld meet the financial constraint.

[brianinok]

After sleeping on it, I have a few more points I would like to make:

1. I don't think the existing building here is large enough as-is for a Holiday Inn Express. So, I think building the hotel inside this exact building is probably a non-issue (unless they can somehow add to the top of it in a nicely done way).

2. There are existing buildings that can be used for this hotel (Spaghetti Warehouse's upper floors for example) if they decide to go the route of using an existing building.

3. If it is cost effective to tear this building down and build a new one, it is cost effective to not tear down a building and build this building on an empty/parking lot.

4. I am not saying we should never tear down a building. But, in an historic district like Bricktown, the criteria should be much more stringent. In my opinion, many of the following would need to be met:
a. No existing building in the immediate area can house the proposed project (or empty lot).
b. The building is not architecturally significant.
c. The building is beyond repair.
d. The building is a hindrance to progress, development, and preservation as a whole in the immediate area.
e. The building is not part of the "skyline" of the area.
Now, if it passes above, the new building would also need to have some of the following (if not, the building should not be torn down in the first place):
f. Is architecturally significant/interesting.
g. Conforms 100% to the immediate area (this would include being eclectic if that is the nature of that neighborhood)
h. Is built to last at least as long as the building being replaced.
i. The building has more potential uses than the previous building.

This is not an exhaustive list, but I think it catched the heart of the matter. Let's examine this project:
a. Multiple buildings or lots could house this project.
b. The building is not architecturally significant.
c. The building is in solid condition; it just needs some cosmetic work done.
d. The building would be great refurbished.
e. While the building is not "skyline" material or necessarily important, the area has a limited number of multiple story old buildings. This is borderline at best.
f. The new building would not be significant.
g. As proposed, the building would comply less than 50%, but this could change.
h. I seriously doubt it would be built to last hundreds of years. Limited service hotels are generally no more "sturdy" than your average house in the suburbs.
i. I am sure both could be converted to multiple uses, but why would you convert the HIE building in 50 years??

As any of you will see if you search this board, I am in favor of the Cotton Exchange proposal, which would include tearing down an existing building. Let's examine it the same way:
a. A couple buildings or lots could house this, but none on the canal.
b. The building is not architecturally significant.
c. The building is in solid condition; it just needs some cosmetic work done.
d. The building would be fine refurbished.
e. The building is small and not significant to the district.
f. The new building is significant.
g. The building comes very close to being 100% compliant with Bricktown.
h. The new building would probably be built with concrete and last very long.
i. The new building could be any number of things over the course of decades or centuries, though I suspect housing makes the most sense.

So, in short, don't tear down a solid historical building in an historical district to build a building that could be built on any number of empty lots for the same cost, or could be placed in an existing historical structure for slightly more cost (but accomplish community improvement in the process).

[Doug Loudenback]

I would like to feature some of these comments in my column for Tuesday. I don't need full names, but I do at least need a real first name. If any of you are ok with that and can help me out on first names (Doug, I've got your name of course), please email me at slackmeyer@oklahoman.com.
- Steve

Saaay ... who was/is that masked man????

[jbrown84]

I say don't tear it down. This hotel can go on any number of empty lots.

[John]

Why can't they use the shell of Sherman Ironworks and build around the exterior?

I doubt they could fit the hotel into the Steffen building regardless, especially to be open by Spring '09.

[PapaJack]

This has been a fun and nostalgic thread for me.

My memories of the Montgomery Wards building go back to 1952, and the old courthouse - jail was not on the horizon. It was gone long before Pei destroyed DT.

As for the Steffan's Building, I spent one day in the summer of 1968 assembling frozen pizzas there for Manpower. Pay scale - $1.50 per hour. I remember the building had high ceilings, thick masonry walls and lots of freezer rooms. I'm not an architect, but I don't think it would be economically feasible to make a hotel out of it.

If the Steffan's building is razed, its replacement should be all brick, in my opinion.

[BG918]

I'd really like to see the upper floors of Spaghetti Warehouse turned into a hotel. I wonder if this is possible, structurally and economically? Don't tear another building down for a crappy hotel, instead embrace the district and locate in one of the vacant warehouses.

[solitude]

I'll be curious to hear if anybody gets a response to the emails sent mentioned earlier in the thread.

[CuatrodeMayo]

I heard back this morning:

Mr. XXXXXXX:
Thank you for your comments, I will pass them on to the Bricktown Urban Design Committee. They are dedicated to the integrity of Bricktown.
Jim

[betts]

I got a marginally different e-mail. so perhaps he is writing them individually. Oh, and thanks, solitude, for the great pics. I drove down to look, but it's nice to have pictures to refer to.

[Patrick]

I received a similar email.

[metro]

I haven't received a reply yet, although I did send them a lengthy email.

[dismayed]

I find the whole thing very odd. It seems to me if you are talking about a hotel in the heart of business or entertainment district, you'd expect that it would be pricier than one on the outlying area. This is the logical opposite of all of that. It doesn't make sense to me.

[Pete]

I agree, dismayed. Trying to build a hotel in the middle of Bricktown or the CBD with low room rates is probably not a realistic goal.

There is plenty of un- and under-developed property all around downtown. Still tons of vacant lots between the CBD and Midtown, for example. And there will be tons of property that needs development when I-40 is relocated.

Bricktown is the ONE area of town that has been somewhat preserved and I don't care what the existing structure looks like, you can never recreate the character of these older buildings. And we certainly should not be sacrificing what little that remains for a small, cheap, plain, mainly stucco Holiday Inn Express.

If people want cheap rates, there are thousands of inexpensive rooms about 5 miles away at I-40 and Meridian. And soon, they'll be able to take the river boat right into Bricktown.

[David Pollard]

I have to say, I find this whole thread very intriguing! Seems like there are lots of good ideas and methodologies out there about how to proceed with development in general in the Bricktown district. What really stikes me though is that this is really about a change in mindset.

Do we blindly tear down a building because it is in the way, or do we really have a good look at what it could mean to a community in an altered form. Its not singularly beautiful, but this building is (as I mentioned before) part of the overall urban fabric of the city that was uncermoniously raped through the 60's 70's and 80's (thank you Mr. Pei and OCURA). How refreshing to see that even an UGLY building could be considered a swan in another life! Three cheers for all of us who know that what is left of historical OKC, or of any city for that matter, is worth saving, or at least giving a REAL GOOD second lease on life. Hopefully this way of thinking will also prevail for the C2S project.

Just to clarify, I love a snazzy modern building more than anyone else (Burj Dubai sends pleasing tingles down my spine : ) ), but there is a place for these as well. The old Galleria parking garage roof, the Sheraton parking garage space, for example. Likewise, there is a place for faux brick Holiday Inn Expresses with parking lots between the building and the street... namely, the suburbs.

[metro]

'Haven't we torn down enough buildings?'

By Steve Lackmeyer
Business Writer

Saturday's story about the proposed demolition of the old Steffen's Ice Cream building at 101 E Main and construction of a four-story Holiday Inn Express in its place lit up online chat boards and my blog at OKC Central — Just another Blog.newsok.com weblog.

The response to the project, to be blunt, is downright hostile.

"This is a terrible idea,” wrote Jill of Oklahoma City at NewsOK. "Bricktown is going to lose its identity if we allow more fake stucco buildings. Let him build south of Reno, where the buildings are all ugly fake stucco already. If Mr. (Alex) Patel wants a Holiday Inn in Bricktown, there are plenty of existing buildings that need renovation. Or, let him build a completely brick hotel that blends in with the surroundings.”

And then there is this: "Urban Designer?” said Brett of Oklahoma City. "I'm not an urban designer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.”

Cathy of Norman was one of several readers who suggested the Holiday Inn Express be built within the old dairy.

"Don't sacrifice that lovely building,” she wrote. "It has squatter's rights because it was there long before all this renovation came about.”

At OKC Central — Just another Blog.newsok.com weblog, Patrick of Oklahoma City wrote that Bricktown should ensure all of its historic buildings be saved from demolition.

"There are plenty of surface parking lots, or other open areas of land in Lower Bricktown where this Holiday Inn Express could be built without having to tear down a historic building,” Patrick wrote. "Here's a novel concept ... why not locate the hotel within the old dairy building? Convert the old dairy building into a hotel, without tearing it down. ... Overall, I don't think the design of the building is bad, I just think it needs to be all brick.”

Andrew at OKMET.ORG was among those who say a Holiday Inn Express could be a plus for Bricktown.

"But a Holiday Inn is not reason enough to demo a building that is built so well it will outlast the Holiday Inn by three times,” Andrew said. "It's concrete and brick versus 2x4s and foam board. If someone wants to build this, they can build it on a parking lot.”

Shane of Oklahoma City, another poster at OKMET.ORG, wrote he was conflicted over the merits of the proposed development.

"The sad thing really is that this is one of the best-designed of the hotels that have been proposed in Bricktown,” he wrote. "It fits in better with the architecture, it looks classier, etc. But it is so hard to weigh these situations! Why can't people just choose to build parking and building combos on one of the surface lots scattered around Bricktown?”

Doug Loudenback, a local history buff who runs a city history blog at Doug Dawgz Blog, inspected the former dairy himself after reading the story in The Oklahoman on Saturday.

"It didn't impress me on first blush and, while I agree that destruction of older buildings needs to be done with care, were a ready, willing, and proper replacement in the wings, I doubt that removal of the older building would even be noticed since it's not really on the beaten path,” Loudenback wrote. "This proposed building would add some nice depth to Bricktown on the north side and perhaps give life to its adjoining areas and, were this project to be 90 percent or better ‘all brick,' I'd favor it.”

At www.okctalk.com, Brian recalled how the Bricktown Urban Design Committee forced Hampton Inn and McDonald's to increase the amount of brick in the facades of the new developments before granting approval for construction.

"That rendering looks like a standard Holiday Inn Express,” Brian wrote. "If McDonald's, Hampton Inn, etc. can all manage to build brick buildings in Bricktown, then these people should have to do the same. Even saying that, they shouldn't get to do this project. They should either have to use an existing building (there a few large empty buildings that could hold a hotel this size) or build on a parking lot. Haven't we torn down enough buildings?”

•Final note: Credit should have been listed with Saturday's story for the Oklahoma Historical Society for providing a photo of the dairy in the 1950s. The historical society's research department boasts an online database, Oklahoma Historical Society Home, that showcases thousands of historic documents and photos.

[jbrown84]

Do we know when the Design Committee will be meeting?

[Doug Loudenback]

Do we know when the Design Committee will be meeting?

I'm pretty sure that Steve's original Oklahoman article said Wednesday, which I took to mean tomorrow.