University Town Center

[bombermwc]

the powers that be in moore don't feel this way ..

I would disagree with that actually. The "powers that be" dont get to decide to spend that amount of money without asking for it anyway. The people would have to vote on some sort of funding measure for that because city itself cant do it without some sort of tax. And that, my friend, is where the support falls off like a cliff.

[BoulderSooner]

I would disagree with that actually. The "powers that be" dont get to decide to spend that amount of money without asking for it anyway. The people would have to vote on some sort of funding measure for that because city itself cant do it without some sort of tax. And that, my friend, is where the support falls off like a cliff.

just like norman the moore council can give tax incentives with out any public vote ..


did you vote for costco ? or the tons of other business that got and are getting incentives??

[Jersey Boss]

FWIW:
https://tif-ed.blogspot.com/2024/06/...jects.html?m=1
Tuesday, June 18, 2024
Norman Oversight Committee rejects Arena TIF Project Plan

The University North Park TIF #2 oversight committee met on June 18, 2024. Six members were present representing a quorum. The committee discussed the proposed Rock Creek Entertainment District Tax Increment Finance Plan which would create two new TIF districts to pay for the costs of an arena + parking structure + district infrastructure.

The project costs are estimated to be $230 million with up to an additional $370 million in financing costs.

The TIF structure is unusual for two reasons. First, the Texas developer, Rainer, LLC would take out a loan and the City would commit to paying off the principal plus interest costs. Second, 100% of the sales and advalorem taxes collected in the increment district would be used to pay off the debt. TIF usually split revenue growth in an increment district so that taxing jurisdictions share in the growth for the entire life of the project.

Here is a summary of some of the key points: ( See article)

[FighttheGoodFight]

just like norman the moore council can give tax incentives with out any public vote ..


did you vote for costco ? or the tons of other business that got and are getting incentives??

I realize they do not need a vote of the public but there is a big difference in a 2 million dollar incentive for Costco versus a $250 million (or more since they need land) incentive.

[Pete]

Reminder that there was a proposal at the state level to require a public vote on all new TIF districts and it was voted down after a lot of lobbying from the OKC Chamber and other economic development entities.

[jedicurt]

FWIW:
https://tif-ed.blogspot.com/2024/06/...jects.html?m=1
Tuesday, June 18, 2024
Norman Oversight Committee rejects Arena TIF Project Plan

The University North Park TIF #2 oversight committee met on June 18, 2024. Six members were present representing a quorum. The committee discussed the proposed Rock Creek Entertainment District Tax Increment Finance Plan which would create two new TIF districts to pay for the costs of an arena + parking structure + district infrastructure.

The project costs are estimated to be $230 million with up to an additional $370 million in financing costs.

The TIF structure is unusual for two reasons. First, the Texas developer, Rainer, LLC would take out a loan and the City would commit to paying off the principal plus interest costs. Second, 100% of the sales and advalorem taxes collected in the increment district would be used to pay off the debt. TIF usually split revenue growth in an increment district so that taxing jurisdictions share in the growth for the entire life of the project.

Here is a summary of some of the key points: ( See article)

except that it isn't 100% of the sales tax the city of norman sales tax is 4.13%, and only 3% of the sales tax in the TIF would be going to pay off the loan. the other 1.13% is to go to fire, police, and other city provided services... just like the other TIF districts in Norman. This isn't something that is different in this TIF compared to the others that currently exist. to say it's 100% is disingenuous, at best.

[BoulderSooner]

except that it isn't 100% of the sales tax the city of norman sales tax is 4.13%, and only 3% of the sales tax in the TIF would be going to pay off the loan. the other 1.13% is to go to fire, police, and other city provided services... just like the other TIF districts in Norman. This isn't something that is different in this TIF compared to the others that currently exist. to say it's 100% is disingenuous, at best.

they don't care about being truthful

[Soonerman]

Not to hijack this thread, but does anyone think Old Navy would leave Sooner Mall and move out to UNP? I'm kind of wondering if they'll move next to where they're building a new Hobby Lobby and Mardel

[TornadoKegan]

Not to hijack this thread, but does anyone think Old Navy would leave Sooner Mall and move out to UNP? I'm kind of wondering if they'll move next to where they're building a new Hobby Lobby and Mardel

Can't be ruled out

[bombermwc]

just like norman the moore council can give tax incentives with out any public vote ..


did you vote for costco ? or the tons of other business that got and are getting incentives??

That's an oversimplification and comparing apples to oranges.

Unless this was going to be a fully private structure, the city offering a tax incentive wouldn't be a drop in the bucket. CostCo or any other box store is dirt cheap to build. The tax incentive for the simple structure, makes a pretty good dent. If you're building an arena, you're talking a 100 times over, at least, bill. If it were as simple as tax incentives to build them, we wouldn't have cities and teams fighting all over the country about who is going to pay for them. Teams wouldn't leave cities because they can't get the city to pay more if it was that simple. OKC wouldn't have needed a MAPs vote for one if it was that simple.

Moore's coffers are not as deep as Norman. Is there land, yeah. Right next to Coscto actually. But could they afford to give that tax incentive at the level it would require? And how would an incentive like that affect ad-valorum for the schools. Would they really want to shoot themselves in the foot like that? I think your comment is showing a misunderstanding of how this would work, and what the pulse of the government/people in Moore is. Not to mention, we just got a new mayor that while he applauded all the commercial efforts for the former long-running mayor, doesn't have that on his radar of things to do and really doesn't need to. The economic engine has been put on an extremely firm foundation and will develop organically at this point. It doesn't NEED this. And without the need, there is very little appetite to push for something like this in Moore.

And yet again, being that far from campus...super bad. What is it Kentucky that plays at a municipal arena? But guess what? It's next door to campus and is a massive facility. That's not the same as building in a strip mall miles away or in the next suburb up.

[BoulderSooner]

That's an oversimplification and comparing apples to oranges.

Unless this was going to be a fully private structure, the city offering a tax incentive wouldn't be a drop in the bucket. CostCo or any other box store is dirt cheap to build. The tax incentive for the simple structure, makes a pretty good dent. If you're building an arena, you're talking a 100 times over, at least, bill. If it were as simple as tax incentives to build them, we wouldn't have cities and teams fighting all over the country about who is going to pay for them. Teams wouldn't leave cities because they can't get the city to pay more if it was that simple. OKC wouldn't have needed a MAPs vote for one if it was that simple.

Moore's coffers are not as deep as Norman. Is there land, yeah. Right next to Coscto actually. But could they afford to give that tax incentive at the level it would require? And how would an incentive like that affect ad-valorum for the schools. Would they really want to shoot themselves in the foot like that? I think your comment is showing a misunderstanding of how this would work, and what the pulse of the government/people in Moore is. Not to mention, we just got a new mayor that while he applauded all the commercial efforts for the former long-running mayor, doesn't have that on his radar of things to do and really doesn't need to. The economic engine has been put on an extremely firm foundation and will develop organically at this point. It doesn't NEED this. And without the need, there is very little appetite to push for something like this in Moore.

And yet again, being that far from campus...super bad. What is it Kentucky that plays at a municipal arena? But guess what? It's next door to campus and is a massive facility. That's not the same as building in a strip mall miles away or in the next suburb up.

TIF is a tax incentive .... okc and maps is an outlier ... not normal in any way ..

[FighttheGoodFight]

Not to hijack this thread, but does anyone think Old Navy would leave Sooner Mall and move out to UNP? I'm kind of wondering if they'll move next to where they're building a new Hobby Lobby and Mardel

I think this could easily happen. Sun and Ski is out of the mall now. Old Navy gets a ton of traffic for that mall.

[The]

I think this could easily happen. Sun and Ski is out of the mall now. Old Navy gets a ton of traffic for that mall.

I didn’t realize Sun and Ski left the mall. Are they still in Norman?

[jedicurt]

I think this could easily happen. Sun and Ski is out of the mall now. Old Navy gets a ton of traffic for that mall.

the only times i go to the mall anymore are to vote... that place is on life support for staying around.

[FighttheGoodFight]

I didn’t realize Sun and Ski left the mall. Are they still in Norman?

Nope. Gone.

[Jersey Boss]

they don't care about being truthful

Like the posts that Norman would own the arena after paying for it?

[Jersey Boss]

Reminder that there was a proposal at the state level to require a public vote on all new TIF districts and it was voted down after a lot of lobbying from the OKC Chamber and other economic development entities.

Not really surprising. TIF legislation was passed in 98, 6 years after 640 severly restricted how revenue was raised. No desire for citizen oversight on approving these huge expenditures

[BoulderSooner]

Not really surprising. TIF legislation was passed in 98, 6 years after 640 severly restricted how revenue was raised. No desire for citizen oversight on approving these huge expenditures

there is a reason we elect people to represent us ..

[The]

Nope. Gone.

Wow. Had no idea. Thanks for sharing.

[Jersey Boss]

there is a reason we elect people to represent us ..

And when those representavies such as The mayor arbitrairly slash public comments by 1/3 (3 min to 2) or reps like CM Peacock curse out citizens then the established recourse of initiative petitions come into play. I question how representative of the voters this course of action is.

[Jersey Boss]

...

[traxx]

the only times i go to the mall anymore are to vote... that place is on life support for staying around.

You don't get a pocket full of quarters and go to the Gold Mine and play Galaga?

[Soonerman]

I think this could easily happen. Sun and Ski is out of the mall now. Old Navy gets a ton of traffic for that mall.

That would be a huge blow to Sooner Mall if Old Navy moved out, I believe Dillard's is probably the only other busy store in that mall anymore.

[FighttheGoodFight]

That would be a huge blow to Sooner Mall if Old Navy moved out, I believe Dillard's is probably the only other busy store in that mall anymore.

Pretty much Dillards, Old Navy and Chik-fil-a keep it open. Maybe victorias secret? Seems busy but I admittedly don't shop there.

[Jeremy Martin]

That's an oversimplification and comparing apples to oranges.

Unless this was going to be a fully private structure, the city offering a tax incentive wouldn't be a drop in the bucket. CostCo or any other box store is dirt cheap to build. The tax incentive for the simple structure, makes a pretty good dent. If you're building an arena, you're talking a 100 times over, at least, bill. If it were as simple as tax incentives to build them, we wouldn't have cities and teams fighting all over the country about who is going to pay for them. Teams wouldn't leave cities because they can't get the city to pay more if it was that simple. OKC wouldn't have needed a MAPs vote for one if it was that simple.

Moore's coffers are not as deep as Norman. Is there land, yeah. Right next to Coscto actually. But could they afford to give that tax incentive at the level it would require? And how would an incentive like that affect ad-valorum for the schools. Would they really want to shoot themselves in the foot like that? I think your comment is showing a misunderstanding of how this would work, and what the pulse of the government/people in Moore is. Not to mention, we just got a new mayor that while he applauded all the commercial efforts for the former long-running mayor, doesn't have that on his radar of things to do and really doesn't need to. The economic engine has been put on an extremely firm foundation and will develop organically at this point. It doesn't NEED this. And without the need, there is very little appetite to push for something like this in Moore.

And yet again, being that far from campus...super bad. What is it Kentucky that plays at a municipal arena? But guess what? It's next door to campus and is a massive facility. That's not the same as building in a strip mall miles away or in the next suburb up.

Moore's current mayor's campaign promise was to build a new water tower. A single water tower. He has no plans to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on an arena. No one is actually serious about moving it to Moore.