Satan uses Turbo Tax

[kmf563]

I can appreciate your point of view and respect your opinions on Craig. All people who visit LC seem to be lumped into some sort of cultish alien hybrid that are ridiculous and crazy though. I think this is just as crazy as you seem to think LC goers are.
I just can't fit into that one way or hell point of view and all the people I know from LC are human as well and don't worship Craig or the ground he walks on.
But I think it's extremely closed minded to assume we all do just because we attend and enjoy and believe in LC. That's like assuming everyone that walks into a liquor store is an alcoholic. Maybe I'm not the normal one here, but I'd rather be abnormal than wander around with my judgemental head in the clouds and pretend life is so black or white.
Let me ask you this E Outsider - do you think all tithes are wrong or just the ones at LC? And furthermore, comparing churches to charities is like comparing apples to birds. Unless you are part of the Breakfast on Boulevard organization how can you be certain of their operation? Most charity organizations are non-profit which means they rely on private donors and sponsorship. All companies have to campaign for this. They all dream of a private giving donor which this one may have. That would allow for them to not have to reach out for the community to assist in so many givings. It all depends on their funding and grants and where it's coming from.

[jsenter]

Groeshel runs a carnival. People simply come and pay their money for the rides, light shows, etc. If they aren't happy with the entertainment, they get a refund.

[Edmond_Outsider]

I rarely comment about LC members. My comments are almost exclusively about him and the business he runs. I really don't see it as a church. I see it as a very aggressive business of which spirituality is merely an aspect of the brand. Most of what is being "sold" is the charisma of Groeshel. If he goes away, what happens to all the branches and all the folks who attend them?

One only has too look to Ted Haggard as a recent example of what happens to a huge church once the pastor has a rather predictable fall from grace.

Do your own research on BOB. They serve the poor in a way I think is consistent with Jesus' teachings. I do know what I'm talking about. I attend FCCE sporadically and have followed the program for years.

I'm not against Tithing but find the current "giving 10% of your income to the church" to be not very well supported by scripture. Then again, I tend to focus on what Jesus said and Jesus said nothing about giving money to a "church."

In fact, if you want to be literal about it, the concept of a "church" as we know it today did not exist back then anyhow.

Sam Kinison had a bit where he said if Jesus were around to day, he'd be saying, "where did I say to take old folks money to build a water slide..."

[kmf563]

Oh please. Non church people think all churches are money hungry and casting souls to hell.
Not to burst your bubble or anything on this BOB in Edmond - but they don't have to beg for money because they have people like The Edmond Women’s Club who has collected more than $2.3 million since its founding in 1983, the majority through donations and fundraisers, all of which has been returned to the city’s residents through Edmond’s own relief agencies like the Hope Center and Breakfast on Boulevard. Trust me, if all agencies had people donating like that, they wouldn't have to ask for money. I saw a ton of private contributors like this out there.
How's the First Christian Churches new coffee bar ministry going btw?

[PUGalicious]

Can't you just feel all the Christian love???

And people wonder why the unchurched don't get excited about going to church...

[FritterGirl]

Oh please. Non church people think all churches are money hungry and casting souls to hell.

Not necessarily. But one could certainly argue that "non church people" get that perception when they see the gross amounts of money spent on new multi-million dollar "lifestyle" campuses, tshirts, bumper stickers, and other paraphenalia used to "sell" their brand. This isn't a new phenomenon, however, given that the Catholics have been doing this for centuries. (It's not a dig, just a fact except for the early Catholic church, there weren't bumper stickers, just billions in real estate, artifacts and religious iconography).

The truth of the matter is that churches are not all that much different from traditional non-profit organizations in their fund raising. The principle difference is that they have a built in audience that is doctrinally inclined to give.

[jsenter]

Can't you just feel all the Christian love???

And people wonder why the unchurched don't get excited about going to church...

[Edmond_Outsider]

I'm not sure I follow. I'm a "non-church person" because I don't agree with your idolatry of Groeshel? Hmmm, that's right presumptuous of you. What else can you tell about me? Boxers or briefs?

If you conflate all who are not Life Churchers with non-believers, then you might want to consider some things:

Groeshel did not invent Jesus
Groeshel is a man, not a God. I'd go a step further and say he's not even a demi-god.

As for the charitable organizations I've mentioned, are you criticizing Hope Center and BOB because people like me believe in their mission and give them money?

Do you really think LC would somehow do things differently if they got the $660 a week that goes to operate BOB? Perhaps Groeshel would have been able to open branches in Africa and ended the wars, poverty, and starvation that plague many countries there.

Do you think the $660 a week BOB feeds hundreds on is some how extravagant?

I'd venture to say that sum is less than LC's weekly smoke machine budget.

As for FCCE's "coffee ministry," I'm not sure what you are referring to and I'm not holding them out as a paragon of virtue regardless. They're a church I have attended recently but do not belong to. They host a really great philanthropy in Breakfast on Boulevard. That's the whole of my statement.

But, they're no Life Church and they don't got no big mega-big-star E-vangelist like Craig Groeshel.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Holy cow...another LifeChurch thread.

[kmf563]

I just don't have the energy today. I have some kind of crud that has been floating around work.
I see what you are saying Outsider and I really wasn't trying to be as tacky as my last post sounded when you read it. I am happy you have found something to believe in and contribute to.
LC isn't for everyone and I know that. I also know that not all people who attend LC are as open - not sure how to say that - as I am. By that, I mean that I do not take everything Craig says as the gospel and I do challenge things that I disagree with. I also enjoy the other pastors just as much as him. But I also know it's the first church in my 30 + years on Earth that has actually made me feel comfortable, I don't feel like I'm being judged, and I have learned so much about God. My son is going on his first mission trip this spring break also.
None of my family members when I was growing up ever went to church or even talked about God. So this is why my church means so much to me, it is helping to break a horrible family chain of events and lifestyles.

On a completely different angle - some people believe that tithing from the Bible turned into taxes which is where our tax system comes from. What do you guys think about this?

[Patrick]

On a completely different angle - some people believe that tithing from the Bible turned into taxes which is where our tax system comes from. What do you guys think about this?

Taxes have always been a part of life. And it's addressed in the Bible as paying to Caesar what's owed to him. I don't really think it's connected to tithing in any way.

[Midtowner]

Taxes have always been a part of life. And it's addressed in the Bible as paying to Caesar what's owed to him. I don't really think it's connected to tithing in any way.

You used to tithe to the Levites. The Levites were a quasi-governmental tribe in Israel which performed many of the tasks we expect of the government today. The Levites, in turn, gave 1/10 of what was given to them to the church.

If you want to follow the OT rule of tithing, you ought to give 1%.