Boardwalk at Bricktown / Dream Hotel

[G.Walker]

My question is Why? lol. Why do you want a tower that tall? There is surely not a need for it here, and it doesn't fit. So you are going to built the 2nd tallest building in the whole US, just because you can? Doesn't make any sense. I am sure that tower alone would cost more than $1B. Why not use that money and build another 4 tower mixed use development closer to downtown?

Last one, so no I am not the side that Legends Tower is a 100% go.

[Pete]

Me again, I am just as skeptical. But I am not going to say its not going to happen at all, based on speculation and opinions.

But it might happen due to speculation and opinion you prefer to believe?

[G.Walker]

I have always said I believe the FIRST phase is a go, now has far as Legends Tower, I have said 50% chance, when you created that poll, or maybe it was 60%, not sure.

[jn1780]

I don't know why people keeping ignoring that Matteson stated on record that the height of Legends Tower, or it being constructed at all will depend solely on the success of the first phase of towers.

He has stated a lot of ambiguous comments and presented math that doesn't add up. I guess we're supposed to decided what is BS PR vs what is real? The missing data point is his motivation for the BS PR move.

[G.Walker]

There is no demand or reason to build a skyscraper this tall in OKC. Matteson Capital is just doing it, just because he can. I guess to make history.

Just doesn't make any sense. We will see what happens, but not calling in to work to wait and see.

Best one yet, lol.

[PhiAlpha]

He has stated a lot of ambiguous comments and presented math that doesn't add up. I guess we're supposed to decided what is BS PR vs what is real? The missing data point is his motivation for the BS PR move.

The only thing he hasn't said so far is "You could get a good look a t-bone by sticking your head up a bull's ass, but wouldn't you rather take the butcher's word for it?"

[jn1780]

I guess we will just be on a lookout for a Phase 1 tower in June 2024 that was the last "official stated' project timeline, but time is usually linear and the the last thing someone said is the latest up to date information and people don't have to say "Oh that's not what he meant, it just funding for the first tower".

[okcrun]

I guess we will just be on a lookout for a Phase 1 tower in June 2024 that was the last "official stated' project timeline, but time is usually linear and the the last thing someone said is the latest up to date information and people don't have to say "Oh that's not what he meant, it just funding for the first tower".

I don't get all the arguing here about the Legends tower. They don't have TIF financing for it so the only people losing out are the investors which I'd be shocked if anyone here cares about. For some reason everyone is acting like it's personal. It's either going to happen or it's not regardless of anything said here. Are we really going to argue about the possibility of it happening for a year or more? Let them continue to put whatever BS PR out there acting like it's going to happen. At least it's getting national attention over something that is somewhat positive instead of whatever embarrassing new laws are being proposed by the state legislature which is usually how we make headlines.

[Bowser214]

Thank you okcrun!!! My thoughts exactly.

[Pete]

Fraud is fraud and it's incredibly rare that someone would have a personal financial interest. Why have there been tons of books and movies about Bernie Madoff? You think the millions that followed all that should only care if it was their money? Why is Penn Square Bank still discussed 45 years later? Why was my series on TEEMCO by far the most-read news posts in the history of OKCTalk?

A better question would be: Why wouldn't people who care about OKC be concerned about something that looks very iffy and perhaps shady?

And: What is it about the local culture where OKC seems to be a fertile ground for scams?


Ask the investors in Strawberry Fields how they feel about that project and the way it was promoted in the press and the way the now-accused leader was portrayed and is still portrayed even after embezzling funds.

These types of things are not just civil cases where people lose their investment, they are often deeply criminal acts which our society has deemed worthy of severe punishment. There is a cost to society and to a community beyond the people that directly lose money.

And waiting to ask obvious questions until it's too late is exactly how those with sinister motives are able to harm so many.

[RodH]

Fraud is fraud and it's incredibly rare that someone would have a personal financial interest. Why have there been tons of books and movies about Bernie Madoff? You think the millions that followed all that should only care if it was their money? Why is Penn Square Bank still discussed 45 years later? Why was my series on TEEMCO by far the most-read news posts in the history of OKCTalk?

A better question would be: Why wouldn't people who care about OKC be concerned about something that looks very iffy and perhaps shady?

And: What is it about the local culture where OKC seems to be a fertile ground for scams?


Ask the investors in Strawberry Fields how they feel about that project and the way it was promoted in the press and the way the now-accused leader was portrayed and is still portrayed even after embezzling funds.

These types of things are not just civil cases where people lose their investment, they are often deeply criminal acts which our society has deemed worthy of severe punishment. There is a cost to society and to a community beyond the people that directly lose money.

And waiting to ask obvious questions until it's too late is exactly how those with sinister motives are able to harm so many.

Are you alleging that a crime is being committed here? What is the scam? The developer does not appear to be publicly seeking local investors.

Every city has a portfolio of never built projects. Even booming cities like Nashville, Austin, Miami, Dallas, Las Vegas, New York, and Toronto. I do not think that whether this project gets built or not is a negative for OKC.

Personally, I would like to see it (phase 1) built but I think that the odds of it happening are low. As for the Legends Tower, it is totally improbable and impractical. I was indifferent but I am starting to hope it gets built for two reasons. One reason is that I think that it is the only chance I might have to see a building that tall. The main reason is that it would be an answer to all those who are saying that OKC is too pathetic for a building like this.

[Pete]

Are you alleging that a crime is being committed here? What is the scam? The developer does not appear to be publicly seeking local investors.

Asking relevant questions and doing hard research isn't the same thing as alleging a crime. It's merely the pursuit of truth, whatever that may be. And that's important when many things are being said and written that are obviously not true (I'm not going to recount all of them here).

If there is a scam, it would be defrauding investors, the City (remember we are putting up $200 million), and lenders.

And yes, Matteson has openly sought local investors, although I'm not sure why it matters where an investor may live.

[Anonymous.]

The Legends tower is still blowing up big on social media. I know the algorithm is doing its thing, but it is wild to see people all over the world posting about this tower. I like to read the comments on the posts and get a vibe of what people in other cities and countries think.

The general themes I am seeing under the posts:
-Tornado
-But why?
-OKC has no other buildings (many of the posts are using the rendering that does not show any real OKC background/skyline)
-Cool, but then you have to live in OKC.
-America! ('sticking it to the libs' on the coasts by using oil money to build a giant middle finger)

[Tyson]

The Legends tower is still blowing up big on social media. I know the algorithm is doing its thing, but it is wild to see people all over the world posting about this tower. I like to read the comments on the posts and get a vibe of what people in other cities and countries think.

The general themes I am seeing under the posts:
-Tornado
-But why?
-OKC has no other buildings (many of the posts are using the rendering that does not show any real OKC background/skyline)
-Cool, but then you have to live in OKC.
-America! ('sticking it to the libs' on the coasts by using oil money to build a giant middle finger)

I have to abstain from looking at all those posts cause it's just absurd what people come up with. People publicly hate on the entire state of Oklahoma from these posts.

[Womp Womp]

^

There has been nothing remotely comparable to this project in OKC, even if they just do the three 34-story towers.

Devon is somewhat in the ballpark but it was built by a big energy company for their own private use; they just wrote a check. Nothing like 3 towers of hotel and apartments and condos with investors and bank loans. And Devon was 50 floors while this will be a total of 102.

First National would probably be closest but that was a renovation, not a new-build and only 1/3rd the size of the Boardwalk's first phase.

So, yes, it would be by far the largest commercial development in the history of our City, and that's not counting the super tall tower.


Even if you choose to dismiss all the valid questions about Matteson, the proposed budget is completely unrealistic. As I pointed out, Devon Energy Center was almost a billion $ in today's money, long before crazy materials costs and high interest rates. But Matteson is saying he is going to build the 3 towers PLUS the super tall for only 50% more, which is probably the biggest red flag of all.

The budget doesn't come close to making sense, so it's very hard to see how he is going to get anything done.

Pete, I think you're getting a bit sidetracked by the floor count as opposed to floor area. The supposed square footage of the project is 2.7 million square feet, which at $1.5 billion works out to $555/sqft. Devon, accounting for inflation, is just under a billion. Round it up to a billion even and at 1.8 million square feet it is exactly the same at $555/sqft.

The difference in floor count makes sense when you consider that residential towers often have a smaller floor plan than office towers, plus the Devon Energy Center includes the large six(?) story structure between the tower and BOK Park Plaza.

And the engineering for the supertall isn't going to be completely outrageous like the ultra-thin buildings in NYC. The design and construction is obviously going to need to be a step above anything else in the city, but they're not working with the same constraints that are skyrocketing the price in New York.

Now 1.5 billion still seems optimistic, and likely assumes a flawless construction schedule. And I'm not taking into account the differences between office and residential construction. But my point is that I don't think the price is out-to-lunch crazy.

And I'm completely ignoring here whether or not this project is actually feasable or has any chance of happening.

[Pete]

^

You are completely forgetting that this entire project is apartments, condos and hotel rooms which are significantly more expensive to build than open office space.

Plus, it's much, much more expensive to start building over 50 floors and Legends Tower will have 134 (according to Matteson).

[Womp Womp]

Forgot to add RE: Miami. The city has prohibited the construction of buildings over 1049' above sea level, so you couldn't build an 1100' tower even if you wanted to.

Edit: Clarification: It is the FAA specifically that has limited the height of buildings to 1049' above sea level, due to concerns about building height interfering with the approach to the Miami airport.

[PhiAlpha]

Forgot to add RE: Miami. The city has prohibited the construction of buildings over 1049' above sea level, so you couldn't build an 1100' tower even if you wanted to.

Edit: Clarification: It is the FAA that has limited the height of buildings to 1049' above sea level, due to concerns about building height interfering with the approach to the Miami airport.

Makes all the reporting on it look even dumber.

[UrbanistPoke]

Forgot to add RE: Miami. The city has prohibited the construction of buildings over 1049' above sea level, so you couldn't build an 1100' tower even if you wanted to.

Edit: Clarification: It is the FAA specifically that has limited the height of buildings to 1049' above sea level, due to concerns about building height interfering with the approach to the Miami airport.

China has even made it illegal to build these types of towers and I would be willing to bet that if there's not financial capacity to build mixed-use super tall/hyper tall buildings in Shanghai, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Beijing, etc. it is even more dumb to do here. The idea to build 2,000 housing units isn't the dumb part of the proposal or any of the other uses it's the fact that buildings over 1,200 feet high are incredibly difficult to build cost wise, they are incredibly inefficient, etc etc. There is a reason governments are banning these types of projects in other global markets and it's because developers tend to run out of money or they can't ever get them to be occupied well enough for them to justify the capital it cost to build. Thus it becomes a financial risk to the banking system and a drag to the overall market when there's a huge block of vacant space in a building that shouldn't have been built.

A different type of example would be One Technology Center in Tulsa (now City Hall). WilTel built the building with floorplates of over 40,000 sq ft which is not supportable in the market and it dragged down the office market downtown for a decade + until the city bought it and took it off the market. Vancouver BC doesn't allow developers to build commercial buildings with floorplates larger than 20,000-25,000 sq ft for that very reason.

[Pete]

Regarding the big show surrounding the FAA approval, I didn't realize that anything over 200 feet requires FAA clearance.

So, basically anything over 15 stories requires this approval, as will all 3 other towers as part of this development.

BTW, that 200 foot limit also includes temporary structures like cranes. So basically anything with a construction crane requires approval from the FAA; the ordinance also includes other structures like wind turbines and cell phone antennae.


To put all this in perspective, currently in Oklahoma there are 860 pending applications before the FAA. Matteson is making a big deal out of the clearance for Legends Tower but it's a very common procedural issue that has nothing to do with its massive proposed height.

[UrbanistPoke]

Regarding the big show surrounding the FAA approval, I didn't realize that anything over 200 feet requires FAA clearance.

So, basically anything over 15 stories requires this approval, as will all 3 other towers as part of this development.

BTW, that 200 foot limit also includes temporary structures like cranes. So basically anything with a crane requires approval from the FAA or other structures like wind turbines.


To put all this in perspective, currently in Oklahoma there are 860 pending applications before the FAA. Matteson making is making a big deal out of the clearance for Legends Tower but it's a very common procedural issue that has nothing to do with it's massive proposed height.

FAA clearance like you said isn't a big deal and is done by many developers before they've probably even done core samples, etc. It doesn't cost a ton of money and people like Matteson use it as a PR tool and most people are unfamiliar with the development process so they think it's a huge deal. Frankly it is just another reason why it's hard to take this guy seriously because any other legitimate developer wouldn't even bother mentioning they had even applied for FAA approval. As long as a building isn't on a direct flight path or in a sensitive area it is a rubber stamp approval process. I could literally file an application on my house parcel for a building 3,000 feet with the FAA if I wanted too and they'd probably approve it. Doesn't mean I would build it or even be allowed to build it by the city.

[Pete]

^

There isn't even a fee to apply with the FAA. Just send them an email with some basic information.

[jn1780]

It's probably just so the FAA can check to see if it's in a flight path or not.

[HOT ROD]

I guess Devon didn't have to go through hoops on their original 925' building.

Anyway - I'll let this play out, it's way too partisan on here.

[Laramie]

IIRC you mentioned the Devon Tower's original 925' tall rendering which was later reduced by 4 floors to 844' present tower height making it the tallest in Oklahoma.

That original 925' structure would have put Devon Tower 4' taller than Dallas' Bank of America Tower (921') which is the tallest in downtown Big D.