Boardwalk at Bricktown / Dream Hotel

[josh]

It’s obvious some here are quite young and have very little experience in commercial real estate development outside of reading and posting on a message board,

[Ginkasa]

I appreciate the implication one naturally gains experience in commercial real estate development with age.

[PhiAlpha]

so in your logic, in order for a project to be relevant, then the developer needs to be known by you and have deep pockets. Got it.

I still stand by the FACT that those project have not started 'anything' beyond fancy renderings, and despite being significantly smaller than Boardwalk - they have YET to have any traction to indicate they will be built UNLIKE Boardwalk at least having variance applications and approvals of the non-supertall design. ... You'd think if what you're saying is true that Boulevard and Alley's End would have already been built - not years later and "echo", nothing.

If that is your key take away from my post, then that explains a lot about your inability to understand the growing skepticism among posters here.

[PhiAlpha]

Pete, thanks for the feedback and BDP for your thoughts. I definitely appreciate good investigative journalism but it seems to be bleeding away from the actual feasibility of this project for Phase 1 based on the opinion by some that OKC is not deserving of the recently announced Legends Tower supertall as Phase 2.

I think it is fair to cover both sides, and appreciate data GWalker has been able to find to. Im on his side of the fence obviously, but I also want to be objective and consider all data. But I am not going to get emotional as some, in saying that OKC isn't deserving or shouldn't get a supertall. This is bogus and speaks more of the bias some people have against Oklahoma City (or Oklahoma in general) rather than THEY actually supplying facts/data that OKC couldn't support such a project.

I also think OKC Talk and the national forums are a great place for dialogue. I hope it continues but really hate being denigrated for MY opinion just because some have an ax against OKC. Constructive criticism is one thing but I wish admin might intervene in circumstances when dialog turns into attack.

Thanks again Pete for your explanation and approach, I do agree that the local OKC media does often cheerlead certain projects/folks and it is nice to have a balance, particularly when there may very well be glaring flags that others are ignoring.

Dude, you are nuts if this is all you’ve gotten from the last 10-20 pages of this thread. But I love how you think those of us who actually live here have some big ax to grind against the city we live in and that’s why we think this project is a joke.

At this point, you just sound like a kid who is desperately trying to prove to his friends that Santa is real.

[Mesta Parker]

An article in the Bloomberg Newsletter today in Apple News about this project. Really no new news, that has not been discussed on this thread. Unfortunately, the link to the article will not work. If you want to see it, go to bloomberg.com and do a search for Bricktown and it will pop up. The reason I am posting is that all the “Matteson” projects discussed on this board were used as references in the article for past work. The Bloomberg journalist did no more project background checking than our local journalists.

[Richard at Remax]

Dude, you are nuts if this is all you’ve gotten from the last 10-20 pages of this thread. But I love how you think those of us who actually live here have some big ax to grind against the city we live in and that’s why we think this project is a joke.

At this point, you just sound like a kid who is desperately trying to prove to his friends that Santa is real.

Wait, what?!

[Pete]

^

That was written by the architecture/design writer, not one of their business reporters.

But it does go to show the dangers of the locals writing things as facts and then having them picked up by other publications.

[unfundedrick]

An article in the Bloomberg Newsletter today in Apple News about this project. Really no new news, that has not been discussed on this thread. Unfortunately, the link to the article will not work. If you want to see it, go to bloomberg.com and do a search for Bricktown and it will pop up. The reason I am posting is that all the “Matteson” projects discussed on this board were used as references in the article for past work. The Bloomberg journalist did no more project background checking than our local journalists.

The link seems to work for me.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsl...all-skyscraper

[Rover]

Pete, thanks for the feedback and BDP for your thoughts. I definitely appreciate good investigative journalism but it seems to be bleeding away from the actual feasibility of this project for Phase 1 based on the opinion by some that OKC is not deserving of the recently announced Legends Tower supertall as Phase 2.

I think it is fair to cover both sides, and appreciate data GWalker has been able to find to. Im on his side of the fence obviously, but I also want to be objective and consider all data. But I am not going to get emotional as some, in saying that OKC isn't deserving or shouldn't get a supertall. This is bogus and speaks more of the bias some people have against Oklahoma City (or Oklahoma in general) rather than THEY actually supplying facts/data that OKC couldn't support such a project.

I also think OKC Talk and the national forums are a great place for dialogue. I hope it continues but really hate being denigrated for MY opinion just because some have an ax against OKC. Constructive criticism is one thing but I wish admin might intervene in circumstances when dialog turns into attack.

Thanks again Pete for your explanation and approach, I do agree that the local OKC media does often cheerlead certain projects/folks and it is nice to have a balance, particularly when there may very well be glaring flags that others are ignoring.

This has nothing to do with OKC being “deserving”. It has to do with making real business sense and the odds of it ultimately being successful if built. Talking about OKC being deserving and so blindly being sure of it happening is a sign of insecurity and the need for validation. This is a business opportunity and not a judgement on the people of OKC.

[PhiAlpha]

Wait, what?!

Sorry to have to be the one to break the news to you bud.

[jedicurt]

Sorry to have to be the one to break the news to you bud.

this is why some things need to be hidden behind Spoiler Tags....

[Anonymous.]

The link seems to work for me.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsl...all-skyscraper

"'The city has already approved the Boardwalk project, Matteson says, and in addition to securing $200 million in tax increment financing from the city, he’s found a major investor to finalize the total $1.5 billion in financing. Matteson won’t name this investor or reveal their location, but he says he may identify them after the public hearings are finished."

Yea nothing presented is getting built here. lol

[onthestrip]

"'The city has already approved the Boardwalk project, Matteson says, and in addition to securing $200 million in tax increment financing from the city, he’s found a major investor to finalize the total $1.5 billion in financing. Matteson won’t name this investor or reveal their location, but he says he may identify them after the public hearings are finished."

Yea nothing presented is getting built here. lol

My favorite part about his investors were name dropping Byron Scott and Cuttino Mobley. Im sure they have a some money but they have a drop in the bucket needed for the tallest tower in the US.

[EtanEiko]

So ignoring the "Legends Tower" What are the realistic possibilities that any of the 3 towers are built?

[mugofbeer]

Much better in my worth-very-little opinion. I could certainly see 1-2 residential towers being financially viable.

[PhiAlpha]

I think a residential tower and a hotel or two would be financially viable…I just don’t think there’s anyway they get built, especially not as currently proposed, unless reputable developer with an actual track record of completed and successful high rise projects comes into the picture.

Even without the Legends Tower, we’re still talking about the most ambitious large scale high rise project in OKC since the completion of the Devon tower and possibly the most ambitious hotel/residential development in OKC’s recent history. Unless it is massively scaled down, I don’t see anyway Matteson pulls it off on his own.

[Pete]

^

There has been nothing remotely comparable to this project in OKC, even if they just do the three 34-story towers.

Devon is somewhat in the ballpark but it was built by a big energy company for their own private use; they just wrote a check. Nothing like 3 towers of hotel and apartments and condos with investors and bank loans. And Devon was 50 floors while this will be a total of 102.

First National would probably be closest but that was a renovation, not a new-build and only 1/3rd the size of the Boardwalk's first phase.

So, yes, it would be by far the largest commercial development in the history of our City, and that's not counting the super tall tower.


Even if you choose to dismiss all the valid questions about Matteson, the proposed budget is completely unrealistic. As I pointed out, Devon Energy Center was almost a billion $ in today's money, long before crazy materials costs and high interest rates. But Matteson is saying he is going to build the 3 towers PLUS the super tall for only 50% more, which is probably the biggest red flag of all.

The budget doesn't come close to making sense, so it's very hard to see how he is going to get anything done.

[jn1780]

^

Even if you choose to dismiss all the valid questions about Matteson, the proposed budget is completely unrealistic. As I pointed out, Devon Energy Center was almost a billion $ in today's money, long before crazy materials costs and high interest rates. But Matteson is saying he is going to build the 3 towers PLUS the super tall for only 50% more, which is probably the biggest red flag of all.

The budget doesn't come close to making sense, so it's very hard to see how he is going to get anything done.

This is why you can't ignore what Matteson has said about the "Legends Tower and the development". Its not as simple as saying "but, the other towers have been in planning for a long time and also TIF!".

[PhiAlpha]

^

There has been nothing remotely comparable to this project in OKC, even if they just do the three 34-story towers.

Devon is somewhat in the ballpark but it was built by a big energy company for their own private use; they just wrote a check. Nothing like 3 towers of hotel and apartments and condos with investors and bank loans. And Devon was 50 floors while this will be a total of 102.

First National would probably be closest but that was a renovation, not a new-build and only 1/3rd the size of the Boardwalk's first phase.

So, yes, it would be by far the largest commercial development in the history of our City, and that's not counting the super tall tower.


Even if you choose to dismiss all the valid questions about Matteson, the proposed budget is completely unrealistic. As I pointed out, Devon Energy Center was almost a billion $ in today's money, long before crazy materials costs and high interest rates. But Matteson is saying he is going to build the 3 towers PLUS the super tall for only 50% more, which is probably the biggest red flag of all.

The budget doesn't come close to making sense, so it's very hard to see how he is going to get anything done.

I forgot ALL the other towers were proposed to be 34 stories. Yeah...completely nuts unless there are some major changes to the group putting this together.

[G.Walker]

I don't know why people keeping ignoring that Matteson stated on record that the height of Legends Tower, or it being constructed at all will depend solely on the success of the first phase of towers.

[Pete]

I don't know why people keeping ignoring that Matteson stated on record that the height of Legends Tower, or it being constructed at all will depend solely on the success of the first phase of towers.

Because absolutely nobody other than you and maybe two other people on this thread believe for a second Legends Tower will ever be built.

[PhiAlpha]

I don't know why people keeping ignoring that Matteson stated on record that the height of Legends Tower, or it being constructed at all will depend solely on the success of the first phase of towers.

Because the first phase being built at all seems like a long shot right now?

[G.Walker]

I am sorry, although nice, that is just wayyyyy too tall and out of place, no reason for it to be that tall. Not sure why

I never said Legends Tower WILL be built. I have always said, if built, it would be scaled down. You can even look at my past comments, and I was the first to say, there is no need for a tower that tall in OKC.

[G.Walker]

I like the 3 tower development, though every new rendering we see it gets changed. Hopefully this is the last one. As far as the supertall, I would rather them spend the money building multiple smaller high rise towers and create density vs. one out of place supertall.

Me again, I am just as skeptical. But I am not going to say its not going to happen at all, based on speculation and opinions.

[G.Walker]

Sorry I haven't been to Dubai, man I must live under a rock. Anyways, a 1,776ft tower has no place in dowtown OKC right now, I don't care how you argue it. Austin current tallest tower (875ft) doesn't even come close to this, so thats a bad comparison. Lets be realistic, OKC is not Dubai, NYC, or even Austin.

And again, lol.