Streets/traffic/roads

[Bill Robertson]

Our neighborhood has been discussing roundabouts since someone found that the city would allow them if the residents paid for them.
First, it would cost a fortune.
Second, though I wouldn't do it, it would give me a beautiful opportunity to put my Miata through her paces. And I'm sure there's people out there in pickups who would go for it.
My neighborhood also wants signs put up. Sorry but signage and roundabouts are something to be ignored or even challenged by people who want to be fast drivers.

[CatholicSooner]

Our neighborhood has been discussing roundabouts since someone found that the city would allow them if the residents paid for them.
First, it would cost a fortune.
Second, though I wouldn't do it, it would give me a beautiful opportunity to put my Miata through her paces. And I'm sure there's people out there in pickups who would go for it.
My neighborhood also wants signs put up. Sorry but signage and roundabouts are something to be ignored or even challenged by people who want to be fast drivers.

Wat?

[scottk]

i wonder if that was just a glitch .. I use that intersection every day ..

Same. Kelly and Covell is actually how every major intersection in Edmond should look. 2nd and Bryant is also a good example of how the larger intersection helped traffic flow in that area.
With both of these intersections, traffic flows as best as possible with multiple turn lanes in each direction and wide lanes.

The problem is that Covell is such a cluster from I-35 to the western edges of Edmond City limits. It goes from 2 lane county roads and 4 way stops to an actual planned intersection at Kelly/Covell. Any progress made at Kelly/Covell or Broadway/Covell is quickly defeated at places like Covell/Western or Covell/Bryant or Coltrane.

2nd Street would benefit with a continuous center turn lane from the railroad tracks all the way past Santa Fe. Along 2nd, the sheer number of businesses and neighborhoods with individual curb cuts and no turn inlets greatly hurts the flow. The mis-timing of lights at Bryant to either Vista Lane or the Target/Walmart Market shopping centers and the mis-timed lights by UCO on 2nd.

The at-grade railroad crossings on Danforth, 15th, and 33rd also impede traffic flow with the number of trains that "get up to speed" while going through Edmond.

The other failure of the ITS technology is that it has trouble prioritizing which directions to give priority to. There is what appears to be an equal demand of cars heading north/south from Waterloo into OKC via Kelly, Santa Fe, Broadway, and those heading East/West from 2nd, Danforth, 15th, and 33rd to I-35 or Hefner Parkway . Without having a controlled access roadway/parkway in city limits, cars are literally forced to come to a stop at any direction into Edmond.

Edmond's road system should look more like Lawton, as both towns serve about 100,000 residents, and traffic flows much better within Lawton's grid system. However, Edmond has been suffocated by previous city planning. There isn't really room to expand roadways without having to buy out businesses and homes that were literally placed right next to the road.

[rte66man]

The at-grade railroad crossings on Danforth, 15th, and 33rd also impede traffic flow with the number of trains that "get up to speed" while going through Edmond.

There should be an underpass at 33rd. That would give one every other mile (Covell, 2nd, 33rd). Then if OKC would pony up for one at 122nd or Hefner, then everything wouldn't get balled up when one of the sidings gets filled blocking one or more arterial.

[jdross1982]

Same. Kelly and Covell is actually how every major intersection in Edmond should look. 2nd and Bryant is also a good example of how the larger intersection helped traffic flow in that area.
With both of these intersections, traffic flows as best as possible with multiple turn lanes in each direction and wide lanes.

The problem is that Covell is such a cluster from I-35 to the western edges of Edmond City limits. It goes from 2 lane county roads and 4 way stops to an actual planned intersection at Kelly/Covell. Any progress made at Kelly/Covell or Broadway/Covell is quickly defeated at places like Covell/Western or Covell/Bryant or Coltrane.

2nd Street would benefit with a continuous center turn lane from the railroad tracks all the way past Santa Fe. Along 2nd, the sheer number of businesses and neighborhoods with individual curb cuts and no turn inlets greatly hurts the flow. The mis-timing of lights at Bryant to either Vista Lane or the Target/Walmart Market shopping centers and the mis-timed lights by UCO on 2nd.

The at-grade railroad crossings on Danforth, 15th, and 33rd also impede traffic flow with the number of trains that "get up to speed" while going through Edmond.

The other failure of the ITS technology is that it has trouble prioritizing which directions to give priority to. There is what appears to be an equal demand of cars heading north/south from Waterloo into OKC via Kelly, Santa Fe, Broadway, and those heading East/West from 2nd, Danforth, 15th, and 33rd to I-35 or Hefner Parkway . Without having a controlled access roadway/parkway in city limits, cars are literally forced to come to a stop at any direction into Edmond.

Edmond's road system should look more like Lawton, as both towns serve about 100,000 residents, and traffic flows much better within Lawton's grid system. However, Edmond has been suffocated by previous city planning. There isn't really room to expand roadways without having to buy out businesses and homes that were literally placed right next to the road.

1000%

[traxx]

He mentioned that Edmond does not want to use the "flow" signal control method (allowing signals to be coordinated in such a manner that people could drive several miles at the speed limit), rather it uses the "herd" method (which makes drivers catch red light after red light).

I'm still curious about this. Does Edmond feel that there's some advantage to the herd method or is that just the way they want to do it come hell or high water?

In my experience, it causes people to speed in order to make that next light. I'm convinced that Edmond only wants to infuriate drivers. Edmond has several lights that are no turn on red and it's not a safety issue. It's because if you can't turn on red then you will eventually change the other lights to red making the rest of the traffic have to stop. Edmond wants you stuck at a stop light and wasting as much time sitting at a red light as possible.

[BoulderSooner]

Same. Kelly and Covell is actually how every major intersection in Edmond should look. 2nd and Bryant is also a good example of how the larger intersection helped traffic flow in that area.
With both of these intersections, traffic flows as best as possible with multiple turn lanes in each direction and wide lanes.

The problem is that Covell is such a cluster from I-35 to the western edges of Edmond City limits. It goes from 2 lane county roads and 4 way stops to an actual planned intersection at Kelly/Covell. Any progress made at Kelly/Covell or Broadway/Covell is quickly defeated at places like Covell/Western or Covell/Bryant or Coltrane.
.

Kelly and Covell is a great intersection I agree with that ..

I don't agree the Covell is "such a cluster" ..

it is great from I35 until almost Coltrane .. currenlty and is great from just before Blvd to pretty much Sante Fe ..

the 2 miles from just before Coltrane to Blvd is going to get the same upgrade that the rest of that part of Covell has ... with the mile from just east of coltrane to just east of bryant getting ready to start and the next mile to follow ..


sure west of sante fe is a long term issue .. but that is not all of covell from 35 west ..

[TheTravellers]

... Edmond wants you stuck at a stop light and wasting as much time sitting at a red light as possible.

Why does Edmond want that? No discernible purpose to that philosophy at all. Probably just incompetence or they just don't care, not malicious, but who knows.

[scottk]

Why does Edmond want that? No discernible purpose to that philosophy at all. Probably just incompetence or they just don't care, not malicious, but who knows.

It purposely makes you slow down through the city?

I think it isn't as much as by design, but rather too many cars on main thoroughfare streets. Outside of the widening of Covell and some intersection improvements at 33rd and Broadway, Edmond's core streets have essentially stayed the same in 25 years, but gained 35-40k residents within city limits, plus the number of people in far NWOKC that live in a Edmond zip code and drive east into Edmond for shopping and retail.

The other issue that plagues Edmond is almost all roads are boxed in by the main roads. In other words, if you want to go from one side of town to the other, you are forced to use the main roads. Very few streets connect. Most subdivisions have one or two entrances that pour out onto the main road. Why is_______street so busy? The city, by design, makes every person drive on that street.

The explosion of growth in far North Edmond and southern Logan county hasn't helped traffic matters either as more people have to go south/north daily to get to Broadway Extension. Ideally, Broadway should have continued as controlled access all the way to Waterloo, instead it essentially dead ends next to a cemetery and railroad tracks at Danforth and you have to turn right to get merge into a decent strip of Blvd/Broadway to Covell.

[TheTravellers]

It purposely makes you slow down through the city?...

I can pretty much guarantee you that even the worst traffic planner/engineer hired for that size city anywhere in the USA would *not* have that as their priority, they would not purposely FUBAR the entire traffic system through a city just to slow traffic down, it doesn't work that way. It is a horribly planned city with so many cul-de-sacs and separated additions, compared to a gridded city like OKC, but they most likely didn't twirl their mustaches and say "Boris, I tink we haf to slow down all ze traffic in ze city, so why don't ve screw up all ze light thingies".

[jdross1982]

Kelly and Covell is a great intersection I agree with that ..

I don't agree the Covell is "such a cluster" ..

it is great from I35 until almost Coltrane .. currenlty and is great from just before Blvd to pretty much Sante Fe ..

the 2 miles from just before Coltrane to Blvd is going to get the same upgrade that the rest of that part of Covell has ... with the mile from just east of coltrane to just east of bryant getting ready to start and the next mile to follow ..


sure west of sante fe is a long term issue .. but that is not all of covell from 35 west ..

Unless you are seeing something I am not, they are not about to start on the 2 miles between Coltrane West or the next mile. I agree, West of Santa Fe is a long term goal to connect I35 to 74 but don’t see that happening in the next 15 years.

[oklip955]

It purposely makes you slow down through the city?

I think it isn't as much as by design, but rather too many cars on main thoroughfare streets. Outside of the widening of Covell and some intersection improvements at 33rd and Broadway, Edmond's core streets have essentially stayed the same in 25 years, but gained 35-40k residents within city limits, plus the number of people in far NWOKC that live in a Edmond zip code and drive east into Edmond for shopping and retail.

The other issue that plagues Edmond is almost all roads are boxed in by the main roads. In other words, if you want to go from one side of town to the other, you are forced to use the main roads. Very few streets connect. Most subdivisions have one or two entrances that pour out onto the main road. Why is_______street so busy? The city, by design, makes every person drive on that street.

The explosion of growth in far North Edmond and southern Logan county hasn't helped traffic matters either as more people have to go south/north daily to get to Broadway Extension. Ideally, Broadway should have continued as controlled access all the way to Waterloo, instead it essentially dead ends next to a cemetery and railroad tracks at Danforth and you have to turn right to get merge into a decent strip of Blvd/Broadway to Covell.

The city actually had a right of way through there but chose to use it as more cemetery. I think it should have gone through like in the 60s/70s and the city should have bought more ground for a new new cemetery. The problem is the older parts of Edmond ie downtown and the old core were designed for a city of 25 to 35K pop not 100K plus. When the east of I 35 and some of the now undeveloped west side fill in, let alone southern Logan county etc fills in, what a mess this will be. The current council/staff have to deal with what was done years ago.

[traxx]

I can pretty much guarantee you that even the worst traffic planner/engineer hired for that size city anywhere in the USA would *not* have that as their priority, they would not purposely FUBAR the entire traffic system through a city just to slow traffic down, it doesn't work that way. It is a horribly planned city with so many cul-de-sacs and separated additions, compared to a gridded city like OKC, but they most likely didn't twirl their mustaches and say "Boris, I tink we haf to slow down all ze traffic in ze city, so why don't ve screw up all ze light thingies".

No one is saying that they're cartoonishly evil people twirling their mustaches but yeah, it's by design.

[TheTravellers]

No one is saying that they're cartoonishly evil people twirling their mustaches but yeah, it's by design.

And you know this how?

[scottk]

And you know this how?

Drive...and I use that term loosely in this instance...through Edmond at 5 PM and try to hit consecutive green lights at the speed limit.

Edmond has their traffic counts posted, and it is amazing to see how certain intersections have not changed in size or additional lanes, but have seen significant increases in the past 10 years! An intersection I have frequented since 2016 has seen a 65% increase compared to when I first started using that route.

https://www.edmondok.com/DocumentCen...-Year-End-2020

Whether its intentional or not, the road grid seems to be very overloaded at times and can't handle the amount of traffic efficiently causing the headaches they have made this a multi-page post.

[TheTravellers]

Drive...and I use that term loosely in this instance...through Edmond at 5 PM and try to hit consecutive green lights at the speed limit.

Edmond has their traffic counts posted, and it is amazing to see how certain intersections have not changed in size or additional lanes, but have seen significant increases in the past 10 years! An intersection I have frequented since 2016 has seen a 65% increase compared to when I first started using that route.

https://www.edmondok.com/DocumentCen...-Year-End-2020

Whether its intentional or not, the road grid seems to be very overloaded at times and can't handle the amount of traffic efficiently causing the headaches they have made this a multi-page post.

I have done that many times (since 1983), although I rarely drive the speed limit (usually 5-7 over and sometimes more to make a green light ahead that I know will change ). Hopefully I will never ever have to drive in Edmond again for the rest of my life. But you said in your earlier post "it's by design" and then in this post you say "whether its intentional or not", so you really have no proof that it's by design or on purpose.

[MagzOK]

And you know this how?

Of course I don't think anyone here "knows" this, but I do think drivers in Edmond think that it is on purpose because it's so frequent that there is no way it can be just chance. On my morning commute through Edmond, I will hit every red light unless I make adjustments and speed but even that doesn't guarantee I'll get a green. This is echoed on my way home except with the sheer volume of vehicles you can't speed. But alas, in the mornings I'll even hit a red as I approach a signaled neighborhood street with absolutely no other vehicle pulling up -- I am the sole driver approaching the intersection. Even more crazy is often it'll turn red as I approach, I'll slow down almost to a stop, and then it'll turn green for me right as I'm literally at a complete stop. It really is maddening. So not only with all the pot holes and man covers and bumps do the roads make drivers need shocks and struts more frequently, we spend more money on gas and brakes due to all the constant acceleration and braking from hitting all the lights.

But whether it's on purpose or not, the way it is set up is conducive to road rage, red light running, and speeding.

[TheTravellers]

Of course I don't think anyone here "knows" this, but I do think drivers in Edmond think that it is on purpose because it's so frequent that there is no way it can be just chance. On my morning commute through Edmond, I will hit every red light unless I make adjustments and speed but even that doesn't guarantee I'll get a green. This is echoed on my way home except with the sheer volume of vehicles you can't speed. But alas, in the mornings I'll even hit a red as I approach a signaled neighborhood street with absolutely no other vehicle pulling up -- I am the sole driver approaching the intersection. Even more crazy is often it'll turn red as I approach, I'll slow down almost to a stop, and then it'll turn green for me right as I'm literally at a complete stop. It really is maddening. So not only with all the pot holes and man covers and bumps do the roads make drivers need shocks and struts more frequently, we spend more money on gas and brakes due to all the constant acceleration and braking from hitting all the lights.

But whether it's on purpose or not, the way it is set up is conducive to road rage, red light running, and speeding.

Absolutely agree. But Hanlon's Razor is probably in effect here - "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by neglect, ignorance or incompetence."

[traxx]

Absolutely agree. But Hanlon's Razor is probably in effect here - "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by neglect, ignorance or incompetence."

I don't see anyone attributing it to malice. I think many attribute it to Edmond's philosophy on traffic or safety or traffic control. Many of us see the flaws of that philosophy and don't understand why Edmond doesn't or refuses to see it. In just the last few posts I've read people talking about speeding to make a light. But if you've spent any time at all driving in Edmond, you can see it's on purpose. It's too precise to be otherwise.

Hanlon's Razor may sound cool and all but you're asking us to defend a position we never held.

[scottk]

With all of these posts regarding if the red lights are cleverly planned or just inconsistent designs flaws; I think those that travel through Edmond can collectively agree the road infrastructure is completely inadequate in moving a large number of vehicles efficiently in any direction across the city.

Unfortunately, most of the roads that need upgraded are "boxed" in by developments that were approved with what appears the hope and aspirations of a town that would stay "quaint" and is now a town pushing 100,000.

[TheTravellers]

I don't see anyone attributing it to malice. I think many attribute it to Edmond's philosophy on traffic or safety or traffic control. Many of us see the flaws of that philosophy and don't understand why Edmond doesn't or refuses to see it. In just the last few posts I've read people talking about speeding to make a light. But if you've spent any time at all driving in Edmond, you can see it's on purpose. It's too precise to be otherwise.

Hanlon's Razor may sound cool and all but you're asking us to defend a position we never held.

So anybody can just see it's on purpose, and that's definitive, notwithstanding that nobody anywhere that we know of has actually spoken to or asked the actual City of Edmond and/or its traffic engineers why traffic actually flows the way it does and the lights are programmed that way. Got it.

[traxx]

So anybody can just see it's on purpose, and that's definitive, notwithstanding that nobody anywhere that we know of has actually spoken to or asked the actual City of Edmond and/or its traffic engineers why traffic actually flows the way it does and the lights are programmed that way. Got it.

If you need to definitively know whether it's done on purpose or its done out of malice or it's done because the people that run traffic lights in Edmond are stupid, then that's up to you to find out. You're majoring on the minors.

No matter the reason it's done, the fact remains that Edmond has way too many stoplights, they are programmed horribly, the streets are not in good shape, road construction is substandard as is evidenced by the road to bridge transitions, road repair is inefficient etc. Why does it need to matter how or why it was done? It's inferior and should be corrected.

[TheTravellers]

If you need to definitively know whether it's done on purpose or its done out of malice or it's done because the people that run traffic lights in Edmond are stupid, then that's up to you to find out. You're majoring on the minors.
...

You don't understand general internet etiquette, do you? You (or others) made the claim it was done on purpose, now you (or others) need to bring the receipts, that's how it's always worked.

And honestly, I don't give half a sh!t about Edmond's traffic, that's everybody else's problem that lives and drives up there. I'll no longer be driving in Edmond, ever, for hopefully the rest of my life, absolutely no need to ever go up there again, thankfully.

[traxx]

You don't understand general internet etiquette, do you? You (or others) made the claim it was done on purpose, now you (or others) need to bring the receipts, that's how it's always worked.

And honestly, I don't give half a sh!t about Edmond's traffic, that's everybody else's problem that lives and drives up there. I'll no longer be driving in Edmond, ever, for hopefully the rest of my life, absolutely no need to ever go up there again, thankfully.

Well thanks for stopping by and letting us know that you don't care about this subject.

[mugofbeer]

^^ That was enjoyable but back to the subject....

I think a huge part of the problem most everywhere is cities sticking in non-thinking and non-demand (timed cycle) traffic lights at neighborhood feeder and shopping centers. These should ALL be on-demand lights so the main streets are always on green unless a vehicle is at the side-street. One of my major pet-peeves is having to stop at a traffic signal for absolutely no reason.