New Downtown Arena

[EtanEiko]

In fairness, that’s not a very fun team to watch when it doesn’t have Ja Morant.

Just has way less weapons on the floor when he’s out.

LOL I see what you did here! #BANG

[Urbanized]

^

The demo and related work could run concurrently with the design and building plans, as those are going to take at least a year anyway.

Not if Prairie Surf is in the building through 2025.

[aDark]

Not if Prairie Surf is in the building through 2025.

Everyone seems very concerned with Prairie Surf. I thought the City gave Prairie Surf a super sweetheart deal to begin with. I also believe their work is currently light. Surely Prairie Surf and the City can simply work out some amicable departure plan that is not strictly bound by the lease agreement if it is needed, right?

[jn1780]

Everyone seems very concerned with Prairie Surf. I thought the City gave Prairie Surf a super sweetheart deal to begin with. I also believe their work is currently light. Surely Prairie Surf and the City can simply work out some amicable departure plan that is not strictly bound by the lease agreement if it is needed, right?

I agree and an enddate to the lease is the first step.The city will let them think about it for a few months and potentially come back with a buyout offer. Either that or PS gets nothing at the end of 2025.

[Urbanized]

A lease is a binding legal document. Also, I keep seeing people talk about Prairie Surf as if it is fully dark. They are currently hosting shooting for a major feature film, the Twister sequel. They were quiet for a few months, but that was largely due to the writers and actors strikes. Who knows what they have on the books, or what business they will close between now and the end of their lease.

A City buyout would go against the arena project budget, and nobody wants that, least of all the City. Like it or not, Prairie Surf is in the driver's seat, and as of now the building largely cannot be touched until the end of 2025, two years from now. After the building is vacated the site will probably take more than a year to be ready for the new arena to begin construction. This puts a 2029 arena delivery in extreme jeopardy. This is one of the main reasons other sites are in play, which I have been alluding to for many months on this thread. A buyout is of course possible, but there is currently no plan on the table.

[kukblue1]

If they can start the tear down by March 2026 there should be no reason it can't be ready August 2029. That's 3 1/2 years. That gives you 1 1/2 years to clear the site and 2 years to build. It can be done.

[BDP]

A City buyout would go against the arena project budget, and nobody wants that, least of all the City.

As would land acquisition, right?

So, that just becomes part of the calculus. If the city feels the Prairie Surf location is the preferred spot, the best part is that the buyout (I assume) gets cheaper as time passes. There's no guarantee that the same is true for land acquisition, and it usually is the opposite. And, since the city gave notice to not renew beyond 12/25, as it gets closer to that date, the facility actually becomes a liability for PS in terms of signing new productions. The term now ends on 12/25, but no major production is going to sign with PS in 2025 knowing they may have to relocate before production has ended.

From an operational standpoint, Prairie Surf has to figure out where they're going within the next calendar year and probably be out by the start of 2025 if they want to attract major productions for that year.

There's a little bit of playing chicken there, but there's actually motivation for Prairie Surf to move as soon as they can to maximize the buyout to help fund their inevitable relocation. On the city's side, it's a matter of weighing that against land acquisition of another site and the value seen in the PS site vs. that other location.

A lease is a legal document, but it's one between two parties. It may seem like Prairies Surf is in the driver's seat right now, but, as time passes, the interests of those two parties comes closer together and will invert. Both of those parties actually have a lot of motivation to end the relationship earlier than the current term.

[Urbanized]

As would land acquisition, right?

….

Not if it’s obtained in a swap

[HOT ROD]

I would think Thunder ownership would have a problem with that considering they get money from other events, but I don't guess they'd have a say in the matter.

By the time the new arena opens, that land may be worth $50M. $30M minimum. It needs to be activated. With the Courtyard right there, would be cool to see a high-end, 30+ story Marriot brand end up on the site.

I would be down with that, OKC doesn't even have a full-service Marriott anymore. Would love a 30+ story Marriott at that site, would be the tallest hotel in the state.

[chssooner]

I would be down with that, OKC doesn't even have a full-service Marriott anymore. Would love a 30+ story Marriott at that site, would be the tallest hotel in the state.

High-end brands don't build here, for some reason. It took an insane TIF for Omni to open.

[Sonicthunder]

What I wonder is what downtown will be like when it opens and how many new high rises will be built? will the commuter rail from Norman to Edmond be running by then(if it ever gets going)?

Theres boardwalk at bricktown with 4 towers. I believe the parking lot at the ballpark will be at least 1 high rise tower if they develop that property.

Pending the location there could be some hotels that wanna build before the arena open. Who knows but i cant wait to see the city continue its renaissance

[Laramie]

^ ^ ^

There are some projects in the mix for BT-DT Oklahoma City where the non-hotel portion has IIRC received $200 million in TIF funds - listed as three apartment towers.

Boardwalk at Bricktown 900 apartments (TIF)
Dream Hotel 220
Unscripted Hotels 174

Link: https://www.news9.com/story/64a8af60...ls-restaurants

The development would include three apartment towers with 924 units combined, a 348-unit luxury hotel, several restaurants, retail and entertainment areas.

Just wonder how much of an impact the 'arena vote' could have for the confidence factor for many projects going forward.

.

[Canoe]

My god this sounds incredible at first blush. I wonder if having the new Arena and the Mas 4 stadium in such proximity would be feasible. Probably not. But if it did work it would make for a helluva time when both properties had action the same day/night. Also, can you imagine the overhead pic of that area? Incredible.

Could we cancel the maps four area and use the funds to retro fit paycom into a multi purpose stadium?

[Pete]

Reminder that the City can get very flexible with its $2 billion annual budget, + TIF, + existing bonds, + street funds and on and on and on...

We already know they bury millions in shortfall at Paycom right now.

And don't forget, what started as a $253 million budget for the convention center ended up costing more than twice that amount because first we were told there had to be a hotel, then a garage and the hotel ended up needing $138 MM from other budgets and land had to be purchased for the garage, then COTPA couldn't finance the garage without selling the Sante Fe garage for well less than market value plus losing a big revenue stream because SF had been paid off for a long time. The City also completely rebuilt several streets all around the CC. The total was at least $500 MM and that doesn't include streets, utilities, lost profit from SF, and other costs.

As things sit right now, we don't know how much of an annual City supplement will be required to break even, but you can bet it will be for more than the current $2 million/year. We also don't know if the ownership group will be granted development rights on/near the arena as they were given for Thunder Alley.

Also, many millions are given to Riversport every year to cover their losses and not long after it opened and they were really struggling, the City went beyond the annual supplement to give them immediate and emergency millions for already spent 'marketing and promotions'.

Both Paycom and Riversport have received tons of future MAPS and other dollars every few years. Each time these increases are discussed, there is never a mention of what will still be needed down the road. The process repeats indefinitely and there is never any reporting against the original budget -- try that in a corporate environment.


When the big boys at the City want something done, they will move heaven and earth to shift related costs to a bunch of different categories and then claim the project came within budget, even though the budget just gets changed -- Project 180 is another significant example.

Don't forget that a huge new TIF was just created earlier this year; look how the boundary was gerrymandered:




So, as I've demonstrated, there is going to be at least $1.2 billion in the core budget and it will likely turn out to be more based on historical sales tax collection. Then, there will be millions more that will be directly related to the new arena but will be absorbed the City in other ways. When all is said and done, I'll bet the total of direct costs are going to be closer to $2 billion rather than $1 billion.

[Pete]

A lease is a binding legal document. Also, I keep seeing people talk about Prairie Surf as if it is fully dark. They are currently hosting shooting for a major feature film, the Twister sequel. They were quiet for a few months, but that was largely due to the writers and actors strikes. Who knows what they have on the books, or what business they will close between now and the end of their lease.

A City buyout would go against the arena project budget, and nobody wants that, least of all the City. Like it or not, Prairie Surf is in the driver's seat, and as of now the building largely cannot be touched until the end of 2025, two years from now. After the building is vacated the site will probably take more than a year to be ready for the new arena to begin construction. This puts a 2029 arena delivery in extreme jeopardy. This is one of the main reasons other sites are in play, which I have been alluding to for many months on this thread. A buyout is of course possible, but there is currently no plan on the table.

The plan is already in motion by first giving PS notice within the next 2 weeks their current lease will not be extended.

And as I've also mentioned, there are several ways the City could ask them to leave earlier than 2025, there would just have to be compensation involved that would be a drop in the bucket of a $1+ billion budget, especially since the underlying land is already owned.


Those involved have thought this through; why on earth would they seek specific action stopping a 1-year option starting 1/1/26 if they weren't trying to get that property even earlier so they can execute the construction plan and be ready to go in 2029, their repeated goal?

Right now, the only definitive action that has been announced is on the Cox site. Of course there are other options but it's pretty clear of the priority.

[HangryHippo]

Could we cancel the maps four area and use the funds to retro fit paycom into a multi purpose stadium?

What in the world? No.

[SouthOKC]

The plan is already in motion by first giving PS notice within the next 2 weeks their current lease will not be extended.

And as I've also mentioned, there are several ways the City could ask them to leave earlier than 2025, there would just have to be compensation involved that would be a drop in the bucket of a $1+ billion budget, especially since the underlying land is already owned.


Those involved have thought this through; why on earth would they seek specific action stopping a 1-year option starting 1/1/26 if they weren't trying to get that property even earlier so they can execute the construction plan and be ready to go in 2029, their repeated goal?

Right now, the only definitive action that has been announced is on the Cox site. Of course there are other options but it's pretty clear of the priority.

Pete - any idea on why the city waited? Could this have been funded like past Maps projects and thus avoid any interest cost via bonds or a loan? Just seems like a waste of $200+M towards interest costs… not sure if it was a timeline issue with MAPS 4 but what a hit when you have successful model for funding civic projects without incurring any interest fees. It’s been stated multiple times everyone knew this was a need several years prior to the upcoming lease expiration.

[Dob Hooligan]

Pete - any idea on why the city waited? Could this have been funded like past Maps projects and thus avoid any interest cost via bonds or a loan? Just seems like a waste of $200+M towards interest costs… not sure if it was a timeline issue with MAPS 4 but what a hit when you have successful model for funding civic projects without incurring any interest fees. It’s been stated multiple times everyone knew this was a need several years prior to the upcoming lease expiration.

If you mean wait until existing MAPS commitments expire, I think it would be around 2030 before they could do anything?

[Laramie]

Let's wait and see how this plays out with the Prairie Surf Media site and any loans.

. . . site will be costly to demolish; also prep for new arena site.
. . . site exceeds what is required for a new arena.
. . . site is large enough to have surplus parcels for private projects--funds toward arena budget.
. . . site is city owned, could save up to $250 million; unknown is what are potential offsets.
. . . site is set favorably for the streetcar routes.

We are looking forward to how this plays out.

[Teo9969]

If you mean wait until existing MAPS commitments expire, I think it would be around 2030 before they could do anything?

I think he means Maps 4 should have been a Stadium, but thinking back to that time, I am not sure it would have been successful then. But they probably could have reduced MAPS 4 collections by a year and removed the stadium/Paycom upgrades from the mix.

[Laramie]

. . .

I think the Owners plan to sell shortly after the arena opens...2030-2035, depending on the league and the roster outlook. They probably determined this after getting gutted with the luxury tax.

Anxious to see what kind of lease agreement with the new arena is negotiated.

[Pete]

Pete - any idea on why the city waited? Could this have been funded like past Maps projects and thus avoid any interest cost via bonds or a loan? Just seems like a waste of $200+M towards interest costs… not sure if it was a timeline issue with MAPS 4 but what a hit when you have successful model for funding civic projects without incurring any interest fees. It’s been stated multiple times everyone knew this was a need several years prior to the upcoming lease expiration.

I'm putting together a timeline on MAPS 3 & 4, when the new arena first was mentioned by Holt or anyone else directly involved, the deal with Prairie Surf, and several other key dates.

I do know for sure the City started their deal with Prairie Surf on 1/1/21. I also know Holt talked about the need for a new 'Big League' arena at his State of the City address in 2022 at the latest.


And one more time: Can we PLEASE stop the insanity about the ownership selling/planning/or threatening to sell?? If someone can provide a hard, reputable quote or real information that's one thing, but this talk just keeps getting repeated and it's taken on a life of its own, and as far as I can tell, absolutely no one has real insight on this matter. Things keep getting posted as facts when they are anything but, and in the meantime we are trying to have an informed, rational discussion.

Same thing for the project timeline, and other key points.

[jn1780]

There's a good chance a lot of the MAPS 4 projects would not happen if the Arena was put ahead of it. There was already some more resistance to it. Plus, separating it out to two votes allowed the city to finance a new arena. Otherwise, the city would have to wait 5 years for all that revenue to be collected.

[Pete]

Otherwise, the city would have to wait 5 years for all that revenue to be collected.

Untrue. The Fairgrounds Arena was/is a MAPS 4 protect, took money from MAPS 3 so they could pay for planning and architecture even though the project was not part of MAPS 3 and before MAPS 4 commenced (the Bennett Event Center was part of MAPS 3), and was placed at the front of the line for collected MAPS 4 money, and is well under construction.

For whatever reason, MAPS 4 was started in April 2020, and then only a couple of years later and long before its end in March of 2028, we are suddenly in a fire drill that could rule out the cheapest and most obvious site (Cox) due to this "We absolutely have to be open midway through 2029, and now we are going to incur tens of millions (probably hundreds of millions) to borrow the money upfront."

This is the same thing that happened with Omni, which demanded all the public money be the first into the project, and the City ended up paying $53 million in interest costs on only $85.4 million owed Omni -- and these were muni bonds with rates near historical lows. Plus tens of millions more for land and construction of a parking garage; neither one of those things was mentioned around the MAPS 4 vote then suddenly became 100% necessary for the convention center. So much so, that the cc wouldn't open unless the Ommo and garage were finished first.


Something is very strange about the sudden urgency around all this. That's why I'm going putting together a detailed timeline.

[Laramie]

Oklahoma City Thunder practice facility is due for a $10 million renovation in 2026.

MAPS 4 Timeline: https://www.okc.gov/government/timeline