New Downtown Arena

[pw405]

Forgive me if this has been covered already - I certainly haven't been able to keep up with this monster thread.

But... why are we being pressured to vote on this now?

MAPS 4 Sales Tax expires 1-1-2029. Ostensibly, couldn't we wait a few years before voting? Or does it help the process in some way by having the vote in the rearview mirror?

[BDP]

The main NBA subreddit is exactly what it sounds like. Fans of the NBA. Obviously most users there are fans of a specific team, sometimes multiple. So speaking on relativity, there is very few Thunder fans in comparison to say the LA teams, Heat, or Warriors, etc. So definitely not local sentiment, but it is interesting to see the thoughts of other NBA fans. Many of them are saying the same things as people here, the deal is bad - stop giving free money to billionaires.

The NO vote is almost entirely because a major tenant will benefit and people don't like that. There's really no other reason that people on the NBA forum would be actively posting against it. Cities build venues with public money all the time, but only when a profitable tenant is associated with it are you going to get anyone from outside the market even remotely interested in forming an opinion, let alone an actively negative one. The majority position would naturally be indifference, but the indifferent aren't very motivated to create posts on the internet. Beyond that, I can't imagine any reason that anyone, let alone any NBA fans, would actively want Oklahoma City to build itself a new arena to the extent that they would be advocating for it online.

In fact, the trolling is almost convincing me that the NO campaign is somehow being funded by Seattle based operations.

I think it's being funded by former Blazers fans who are excited about the idea of bringing minor league hockey back to downtown OKC.

[PhiAlpha]

Forgive me if this has been covered already - I certainly haven't been able to keep up with this monster thread.

But... why are we being pressured to vote on this now?

MAPS 4 Sales Tax expires 1-1-2029. Ostensibly, couldn't we wait a few years before voting? Or does it help the process in some way by having the vote in the rearview mirror?

Pretty sure it’s because their lease on Paycom expired, we don’t want to waste $70 million in maps 4 money on an arena that’s destined for the wrecking ball, and they figured they might as well do it now so that we have a new arena in place by the time Paycom turns 30. The average age of arenas/stadiums for pro-teams that relocated is 31.5 years so while that’s probably just a coincidence, it does seem like that date is relevant when discussing an arena in which there isn’t footprint space for a massive overhaul like MSG and others.

[Laramie]

I think it's being funded by former Blazers fans who are excited about the idea of bringing minor league hockey back to downtown OKC.

If that's true, then the Blazer fans can fund the Paycoom Center when the new arena is opened and have a 15,152 seat arena set up for ECHL AA minor league hockey and ice skating events. Tulsa (6,851) and Wichita (3,677) would welcome OKC to the league to help
boost their attendance figures.

ECHL Attendance 2023-24 https://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attenda...L2004&sid=2024

[Dob Hooligan]

I'm sure there would definitely be schadenfreude if we lose the team in a very similar manner to how they lost the team.

Random questions/thoughts: If the "No"s have it, what is the earliest that the Thunder could potentially leave? And is there any precedent for an ownership group shifting a team around twice in that time period (2008-X)?

To be clear-I do not want the Thunder to leave and do not think they will lose the vote.

As far as quick team movement. I think the Vancouver Grizzlies didn't last 10 years before they moved to Memphis. They started around 1995. And the NBA had begun to portray itself as a mature league that carefully chose it's cities and owners to make sure they were financially solid in ownership and market stability. This was a black eye for the league, because it suggested the NBA was only successful in the US.

The Kings would probably be next. In 1972 the Cincinnati Royals moved to Kansas City (and/or KC-Omaha) and became the Kings. They moved to Sacramento in 1985. Their 13 KC-Omaha years reflected the weakness of the NBA of the era, in that they changed their name, so as not to offend the MLB KC Royals, and had to work in 2 cities in order to sell enough tickets to survive. They had done well "enough" in Sacramento until the Great Recession busted out the team owner Maloof family, who were also the Palms Hotel and Casino owners and became over-extended on real estate expansion there. In short order they had Seattle based, Microsoft CEO billionaire and NBA lover Steve Ballmer ready to buy the team and move them to Seattle. The NBA flat refused to allow the team to move based simply on wealth and want. So, it took about 5 years to get a new arena and team owner arraignment finalized. Which let the team stay and a new arena was built. I would love to say that is likely what would happen here if the vote fails, but I think the fact that Sacramento is the capitol of California gave the franchise a level of importance that OKC can't approach.

The Charlotte-New Orleans Hornets era of around 1988-2010 was probably the last of the cash strapped ownership groups the NBA allowed to operate. The league had decided team owner George Shinn was the problem when the team was operating in both Charlotte and New Orleans. The league feared Shinn would damage the OKC market if they allowed him to stay after the Katrina era, and made him return to New Orleans as quickly as possible.

As to how long before the Thunder would move...I'm guessing at least 5 years. The first issue is that the Thunder make money now. So, they need to find a market where they will make more money and factor in how soon it will become such.

Also, the NBA will not consider any move until a couple years after the league expands. They will not allow anything to interfere with their $3 billion (or up) expansion fee for the 2 proposed franchises.

Now...I have no illusion that we will ever know what a true arena cost is when we are relying on information from billionaires and politicians. I am thankful that OKC has mature enough people on both the team ownership and city leadership side to bypass the BS lies and get to the true deal.

Vote Yes for a Big League City!!!

[jn1780]

Forgive me if this has been covered already - I certainly haven't been able to keep up with this monster thread.

But... why are we being pressured to vote on this now?

MAPS 4 Sales Tax expires 1-1-2029. Ostensibly, couldn't we wait a few years before voting? Or does it help the process in some way by having the vote in the rearview mirror?

Unlike MAPS debt would be used to build Arena as soon as possible before that money started being collected.

[EBAH]

This is what I am having a hard time understanding from the "the owners can buy it themselves!" group. Personally, I want my city to own our arena.

100% exactly this.

I really don't understand them not getting the idea of the city buying the building, then you renegotiate the lease, rent, fee structure to plan an amortization schedule around the length of the lease. This is a pretty easy to figure out equation, the simplest of napkin math after 30 minutes of research in to existing fee and lease structure had me calculating amortization at fully paid for buy Thunder contract alone in 20 years, and that is based off of the current deal, you'd assume new arena means new lease, higher rate etc, not to mention more luxury suite sales, extended concessions, better parking (thunder pays the city for that too lol). If you think about how it will be paid for in a very short term cash deal via a MAPS style tax this means MASSIVE revenue that is usable to the city. Like, sure it will probably be cost neutral at best, but it WILL be putting money in to city coffers in a big way. I'd like clarification but am I correct in my reading of the last OKC annual report that revenue from Paycom Center is the largest input of cash from non tax sources that the city currently has?

[EBAH]

OKC is not big enough to survive losing the Thunder. We don't have enough going for us, and the QOL rankings OKC has worked hard to improve to even average levels, will drop like the Titanic.

oh yeah man, my god this is PAINFULLY true, like, the pitch here is "the weather isn't as bad as you think, for all the guns we have it's not as violent as you think, the traffic is slow, and it's really cheap to live here considering it's big enough to have an NBA team" without that last part ... like what, the food is good if you like burgers? we have more trees than you'd think? you can buy wine in grocery stores now? Abortions are illegal and they teach that slavery wasn't that bad in schools but hey we have weed?

[April in the Plaza]

100% exactly this.

I really don't understand them not getting the idea of the city buying the building, then you renegotiate the lease, rent, fee structure to plan an amortization schedule around the length of the lease. This is a pretty easy to figure out equation, the simplest of napkin math after 30 minutes of research in to existing fee and lease structure had me calculating amortization at fully paid for buy Thunder contract alone in 20 years, and that is based off of the current deal, you'd assume new arena means new lease, higher rate etc, not to mention more luxury suite sales, extended concessions, better parking (thunder pays the city for that too lol). If you think about how it will be paid for in a very short term cash deal via a MAPS style tax this means MASSIVE revenue that is usable to the city. Like, sure it will probably be cost neutral at best, but it WILL be putting money in to city coffers in a big way. I'd like clarification but am I correct in my reading of the last OKC annual report that revenue from Paycom Center is the largest input of cash from non tax sources that the city currently has?

You’re reading the report incorrectly. The city’s interest in Paycom is cash flow negative just about every year and requires consistent subsidy from the city’s general fund.

[floyd the barber]

I'm happy this is almost over.

One thing is for certain. Local sports radio will be less interesting if the Thunder leave.

[PhiAlpha]

Man the Thunder are kicking a** again tonight and are number two in the west in their third year of a rebuild. It would sure be a shame if JoBeth and her band of NERDS ruin it for us!

[PhiAlpha]

Made a poll for anyone who would like to weigh in. It's anonymous lol.

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=47942

[gopokes88]

JoBeth should be stuffed into a locker. Name one thing a lib white woman activist has actually improved.

[PhiAlpha]

JoBeth should be stuffed into a locker. Name one thing a lib white woman activist has actually improved.

My blood pressure if the goal was to score higher.

[PhiAlpha]

I'm happy this is almost over.

One thing is for certain. Local sports radio will be less interesting if the Thunder leave.

Just in time for presidential election season where 3/4 of posts will have political undertones despite the politics forum being closed! LOL

[BDP]

[/B]

YouÂ’re reading the report incorrectly. The cityÂ’s interest in Paycom is cash flow negative just about every year and requires consistent subsidy from the cityÂ’s general fund.

Paycom Center can be the city's biggest asset generator of revenue and still need cash from the general fund to operate.

That also doesn't mean that any money from the general fund equates to a "subsidy" or negative position for the city, primarily because events at the Paycom Center generate sales tax and that's how the city's general fund is, well, funded.

So, whatever amount is paid from the general fund to operate the arena is funded, at least in part, by activity at Paycom Center.

That's just a matter of attribution.

[kukblue1]

Isn't it more than just the Thunder though. There are 365 days in a year Thunder only play 41 unless they make the playoffs. How many events other than the Thunder did Paycom host last year?

[PhiAlpha]

Isn't it more than just the Thunder though. There are 365 days in a year Thunder only play 41 unless they make the playoffs. How many events other than the Thunder did Paycom host last year?

324 Days of Billionaire Conferences that only billionaires can attend!!!

[chssooner]

Isn't it more than just the Thunder though. There are 365 days in a year Thunder only play 41 unless they make the playoffs. How many events other than the Thunder did Paycom host last year?

I would think close to 80 or so. But, with a quality arena an better dock space, I can easily see an extra 20-25 or so. So maybe 100 a year. Plus, tours LOVE going to new arenas!

[jn1780]

If the arena had a prospect of being a cash cow we wouldn't be having to vote to finance the vast majority of it. Small market equals small profits. We will get more events, but I wouldn't expect anything Earth shattering.

[PoliSciGuy]

Isn't it more than just the Thunder though. There are 365 days in a year Thunder only play 41 unless they make the playoffs. How many events other than the Thunder did Paycom host last year?

Not enough to be profitable for the city.

[Rover]

JoBeth should be stuffed into a locker. Name one thing a lib white woman activist has actually improved.

Ignorance and irresponsible talk. Wanting violence against a woman because she thinks differently than you. What a weak and dangerous man proclamation.

[Teo9969]

Paycom Center can be the city's biggest asset generator of revenue and still need cash from the general fund to operate.

That also doesn't mean that any money from the general fund equates to a "subsidy" or negative position for the city, primarily because events at the Paycom Center generate sales tax and that's how the city's general fund is, well, funded.

So, whatever amount is paid from the general fund to operate the arena is funded, at least in part, by activity at Paycom Center.

That's just a matter of attribution.

The report provided to the City Council accounts for all the sales tax generated by the arena (actually the arena + convention center). It still operates at a loss.

[BDP]

Isn't it more than just the Thunder though. There are 365 days in a year Thunder only play 41 unless they make the playoffs. How many events other than the Thunder did Paycom host last year?

It's really way more than the Thunder.

It's essentially just about whether you think OKC is ready for a tier one arena venue in OKC over the next 30 years.

If you're a big fan of Payom Center as it is, and think it will be much more profitable for the city without an international brand as the anchor tenant, then, yeah, confidently vote NO.

[BDP]

The report provided to the City Council accounts for all the sales tax generated by the arena (actually the arena + convention center). It still operates at a loss.

All of them?

That's amazing!

We really shouldn't have an arena at all. The costs are too big!