New Downtown Arena

[BDP]

One of the hard rules of elections is that young people rarely vote. I kinda wonder how many guys in their 20s who hang out at a bar are registered to vote?

We also have to remember that a lot of those younger voters have no real memory of OKC before MAPS, the arena, or even OKC without the NBA. Some of those who were born the first year the Hornets played here can now vote. An 18 year old was 3 years old when the Thunder moved here. Most of them have probably never been inside of the Myriad arena, let alone seen a concert there. And if they're talking about this vote in a bar in the core of the city, they are probably doing so in a district that didn't even exist (or was just an empty shell of neglected buildings) when the arena opened.

It's natural for younger generations to take for granted what was built before them. It's really a sign of progress, when you think about it. I doubt they have much of a concept of a city's who major entertainment venue is an aging facility that hosts mainly minor league hockey with a smattering of concerts in a good year. That's really the long term vision of a 'NO' vote at this point. If anything, that's the real opportunity cost being presented to voters. I think it's hard to say what taking 40+ events away will do to downtown commerce at this point, but it will eventually be more than that in a lot of years.

The anecdote may represent more of a disconnect created by the campaign itself. Continuing to be associated with an international brand like the NBA is a major motivation for the construction of a new arena, but it is not the only benefit of doing so, especially long term, and that hasn't been emphasized enough, imo.

[Bill Robertson]

One of the hard rules of elections is that young people rarely vote. I kinda wonder how many guys in their 20s who hang out at a bar are registered to vote?

This crowd was mostly 30s & 40s I would guess. Definitely a little gray in the hair.

[Bill Robertson]

You hanging with bunch of NERDS?!?

Again, just who was in there. I try to hang with better.

[BDP]

This crowd was mostly 30s & 40s I would guess.

Sorry, I read "20ish guys" as a reference to their age instead of the quantity of them.

So, in that context, my rant was basically out of context. lol

[Dob Hooligan]

This crowd was mostly 30s & 40s I would guess. Definitely a little gray in the hair.

Casually ask who votes, or is registered to vote sometime when you are having a conversation like that. I have, and the answer is not many.

[PhiAlpha]

Again, just who was in there. I try to hang with better.

Must do better LOL.

[Plutonic Panda]

you hanging with bunch of nerds?!?

a bunch of goddam nerds!!!

[HOT ROD]

If the Arena vote passes, let's get back to Capital Improvements, first a recommitment to aging city infrastructures and planning for the FUTURE.

More tourists' attractions like a world class DT Aquarium (partnered with OKC Zoo), finish the MAPS 4 multipurpose stadium with 20,000 seats, and a high-profile 625 ft Space Tower in DT Oklahoma City.

and expand the streetcar (including building in the downtown dual track spine(s)).

I think the tower should be 1000 feet and fixed to scissortail park somewhere.

[Teo9969]

I think the reason that this will pass handily is because the people who want this are more passionate than the ones who don't (as evidenced by basically zero "Vote No" campaign material circulatin). Nobody wants to put their money behind a no vote because it basically the argument requires far more nuance than "Let's lock in the Thunder for 25 years without increasing taxes". That's not to say there aren't also nuanced/quality arguments in favor of the proposal (as evidenced in this thread by a lot of intelligent individuals), just that the only "lowest common denominator" argument against the proposal is "Taxes suck, never vote for them". I suppose "Waste of Money" as well, but I think without nuance that rings hollow with most people because the Thunder's impact is so visible.

[Bill Robertson]

a bunch of goddam nerds!!!

Yeah. But if, just if, these nerds represent any measurable percentage of the citizenry those of us that think it must pass need to get our butts and our friends butts out to vote.

[PhiAlpha]

I think the reason that this will pass handily is because the people who want this are more passionate than the ones who don't (as evidenced by basically zero "Vote No" campaign material circulatin). Nobody wants to put their money behind a no vote because it basically the argument requires far more nuance than "Let's lock in the Thunder for 25 years without increasing taxes". That's not to say there aren't also nuanced/quality arguments in favor of the proposal (as evidenced in this thread by a lot of intelligent individuals), just that the only "lowest common denominator" argument against the proposal is "Taxes suck, never vote for them". I suppose "Waste of Money" as well, but I think without nuance that rings hollow with most people because the Thunder's impact is so visible.

Yes Teo…maybe you should order a pizza and just stay home next Tuesday.

[Teo9969]

Yes Teo…maybe you should order a pizza and just stay home next Tuesday.

SOMEbody has to vote for all the non-OKC citizens who have an opinion on this matter

[Tyson]

I think the reason that this will pass handily is because the people who want this are more passionate than the ones who don't (as evidenced by basically zero "Vote No" campaign material circulatin). Nobody wants to put their money behind a no vote because it basically the argument requires far more nuance than "Let's lock in the Thunder for 25 years without increasing taxes". That's not to say there aren't also nuanced/quality arguments in favor of the proposal (as evidenced in this thread by a lot of intelligent individuals), just that the only "lowest common denominator" argument against the proposal is "Taxes suck, never vote for them". I suppose "Waste of Money" as well, but I think without nuance that rings hollow with most people because the Thunder's impact is so visible.

Amen, my friend. We'll find out so soon!

[PoliSciGuy]

Speaking of nerds, 21 economic professors from Oklahoma universities signed a joint letter against the stadium vote, citing a lot of the literature that's been shared here a lot

[Plutonic Panda]

Yawn. Why am I so shocked economic professors aren’t the biggest fan of American sports?

[dankrutka]

Yawn. Why am I so shocked economic professors aren’t the biggest fan of American sports?

In this case, they are fans of economics. They are making a sound economic argument. This is a weird way to dismiss that.

You can agree with their economic argument, and still justify the arena on other grounds. People can, you know, weigh varying evidence and make decisions.

[Dob Hooligan]

Speaking of nerds, 21 economic professors from Oklahoma universities signed a joint letter against the stadium vote, citing a lot of the literature that's been shared here a lot

I find the use of "Windows 95" in paragraph 3 to be odd. I say odd because it immediately makes us think that Paycom is about that age and must be as useless as the reference here.

The paragraph 4 use of "3 arenas built since 2020 with no public money" does not apply IMO. Those were all built in top 10 population metropolitan areas by incredibly wealthy owners, where the economic return is not in doubt. If OKC were comparable we wouldn't be having this vote. Keep it apples to apples.

[jn1780]

I find the use of "Windows 95" in paragraph 3 to be odd. I say odd because it immediately makes us think that Paycom is about that age and must be as useless as the reference here.

The paragraph 4 use of "3 arenas built since 2020 with no public money" does not apply IMO. Those were all built in top 10 population metropolitan areas by incredibly wealthy owners, where the economic return is not in doubt. If OKC were comparable we wouldn't be having this vote. Keep it apples to apples.

Yeah, just trying hard to make an analogy. I won't fault them on that. I could say "does this paper hold no value because it was type on windows 95 and printed on an old dot matrix printer? "

[Dob Hooligan]

In this case, they are fans of economics. They are making a sound economic argument. This is a weird way to dismiss that.

You can agree with their economic argument, and still justify the arena on other grounds. People can, you know, weigh varying evidence and make decisions.

Let me ask you this...why are they inserting themselves into what is primarily a political argument?

Are they striking a blow for psych hospitals, homeless shelters, jails, and real metropolitan train/streetcars?

I don't recall reading this type letter when BOK Center was being voted on. Or that worthless, $100 million plus toy of a streetcar we have now.

[Mississippi Blues]

In this case, they are fans of economics. They are making a sound economic argument. This is a weird way to dismiss that.

You can agree with their economic argument, and still justify the arena on other grounds. People can, you know, weigh varying evidence and make decisions.

The difference between the quantitative, economic, numbers approach and the qualitative, narrative, inductive reasoning has been the most frustrating aspect trying to follow this thread. I dipped out weeks ago from the nonstop, passive aggressive talking past one another that would borderline turn into personal attacks. Not sure why I opened the thread today but you said it perfectly.

[PoliSciGuy]

Yawn. Why am I so shocked economic professors aren’t the biggest fan of American sports?

What a terrible argument. Rather than grapple with their claims, you simply name call and insult.

[Mississippi Blues]

Let me ask you this...why are they inserting themselves into what is primarily a political argument?

Are they striking a blow for psych hospitals, homeless shelters, jails, and real metropolitan train/streetcars?

I don't recall reading this type letter when BOK Center was being voted on. Or that worthless, $100 million plus toy of a streetcar we have now.

These conversations happen regularly when it comes to economic spending. I despised Ed Shadid as a 14-year-old because of his opposition to the streetcar. Same with OnTrac, NATI, David on Doug Dawgz Blog, etc when it came to the I-40 relocation that required the destruction of Union Station’s rail yard, though that wasn’t so much about economics.

[Dob Hooligan]

These conversations happen regularly when it comes to economic spending. I despised Ed Shadid as a 14-year-old because of his opposition to the streetcar. Same with OnTrac, NATI, David on Doug Dawgz Blog, etc when it came to the I-40 relocation that required the destruction of Union Station’s rail yard, though that wasn’t so much about economics.

I don't think I am explaining very well. My understanding is that tenure in universities is more difficult to achieve than it ever has been. And adjunct (and I think associate, but don't know for sure) professors have not achieved tenure yet. This places them in a position where they are fighting for relevance and funding to survive. So I look at the signatories and wonder if they are driven by conviction, or a desire to curry favor with higher ups in their department, or to gain notoriety through bold statements?

[Plutonic Panda]

What a terrible argument. Rather than grapple with their claims, you simply name call and insult.

What? Where did I call anyone any names or make insults?

[Rover]

What a terrible argument. Rather than grapple with their claims, you simply name call and insult.

Saying someone is not a fan….That is calling names? Lol. I thought you are into politics. You should recognize real name calling… it’s the language of much political rhetoric.