New Downtown Arena

[PoliSciGuy]

Folks, this is called a hedge.

Not a hedge at all. I’ve been consistently saying this since July.

[mugofbeer]

Fair points, though I’m not saying that this $1b is stealing from those outlays directly, more pointing to examples of where that money could be spent. It’s by no means “either or” and I’m not trying to frame it as such. There are lots of different ways to spend this money (hence the concept of opportunity cost in general).

Money has been pouring down the "other things" rathole for 70 years or more and those "other things" are worse than ever. "Other things" is a bottomless pit. MAPS has proven 100x over that sometimes you best improve QOL by spending on yourself - keep your house with what you want.

[sethsrott]

For me personally, I am glad that 30 years ago in 1993 the voters didn’t say “We built the last arena 21 years ago in 1972, we don’t need no new arena, I’m voting no on MAPS.”

This vote on the 12th is about leaving our city in a better situation than it was given to us. About thinking bigger than just the here and now. This false dichotomy about investing in an arena or social services precludes investing in both. The opposition undercuts its own argument about the private sector making this investment when they simultaneously highlight the possible financial losses attached to large arenas. The fact is, government, not the private sector, does large scale public works projects, invests in communal assets to improve the quality of life, character, and long term stability for their citizens.

Voting ‘Yes’ on December 12 is a simple decision for me…the impact if ‘No’ wins out won’t be immediate, in fact a few years will probably go by with nothing changing. OKC will lose out on some concerts that most of the public will never hear that we were in contention for, the Thunder’s owners, after Mr. Bennett passes away will likely start their search for a larger, more profitable market, and we will slowly slide in to the mediocrity that Oklahoma City has been known for. The momentum that Oklahoma City has experienced over the years will slow, a MAPS 5 will be more difficult to secure, out of state investors will see that our citizens have decided that we have invested in ourselves enough and will likely look to other cities where public works projects are approved and appreciated.

This is so much bigger than ‘oh the Thunder owners can pay for their own arena.’ I am saddened by the lack of truly civically minded people in my generation and am concerned for the longer term willingness to try and do big things in this city.

[Cocaine]

The thing is a new arena isn’t a maps project. If it was then maybe more people would be in favor of it. If this was maps 5 and it had a new aren, bike lanes, improvement in schools, street car extensions and investment in mental health some of the people against it might be more in favor of it. As of now it’s $900 million for a new arena when the current arenas age is average for an NBA arena. You can be against this current plan for the arena and still be civic minded “ENOUGH.” The because question if this passes when will be able to vote again on quality of life civic civic improvements again?

What 2032 at the earliest or maybe 2035? Or I suppose they’ll try and get a Maps 5 earlier but the catch is they’ll want add an additional 1 cent tax. This most likely will pass and in 10 years people will wonder why public transportation hasn’t improved and why so many other aspects of quality in life improvement froze a few years after 2025. But at least a bunch of people at banks, the thunder and construction companies will get rich.

[Rover]

The thing is a new arena isn’t a maps project. If it was then maybe more people would be in favor of it. If this was maps 5 and it had a new aren, bike lanes, improvement in schools, street car extensions and investment in mental health some of the people against it might be more in favor of it. As of now it’s $900 million for a new arena when the current arenas age is average for an NBA arena. You can be against this current plan for the arena and still be civic minded “ENOUGH.” The because question if this passes when will be able to vote again on quality of life civic civic improvements again?

What 2032 at the earliest or maybe 2035? Or I suppose they’ll try and get a Maps 5 earlier but the catch is they’ll want add an additional 1 cent tax. This most likely will pass and in 10 years people will wonder why public transportation hasn’t improved and why so many other aspects of quality in life improvement froze a few years after 2025. But at least a bunch of people at banks, the thunder and construction companies will get rich.

I’d take a bet against this NAS (negative affect syndrome) view.

OKC has excellent prospects for a much improved future with quality growth. I think the arena would showcase the optimism and commitment to quality civic standards for its citizens.

[Teo9969]

Opportunity costs are of course real for any fixed amount of resources, and I'm a strong advocate for both public transit and housing first policies, etc. My issue with this framing is it implies that if we didn't spend the $1B on the arena we could instead spend it on these things. Money has not been allocated for those things as an alternative option and it assumes people would vote in favor of these things. Would OKC residents agree to put $1B toward homelessness and transit? Maybe.... maybe not. But this framing I keep seeing implying that if not for the arena we could have so much more investment in these other issues, as if the arena were stealing directly from them, seems very disingenuous to me.

"as if the arena were stealing directly from them" is the key sentence here and where your point mostly gets in trouble is the "as if" (or the "implies" earlier). I imagine the problem is less what is being argued and more the understanding of the argument (though if someone is outright saying this, then your counter is solid IMO).

I'm not going to say that we've done enough for transit or any other number of initiatives this city needs to see. It is also plainly evident that the arena does not prevent pursuit of those initiatives in any short-term or medium-term future. What passing this measure very obviously does is present risk to other initiatives that will require substantial resources from voters. The limited resources starts with the people that are being taxed. I myself would be very comfortable paying 10% in sales tax to fund a variety of initiatives (including things like arenas) in an effort to continually make this city the best place it can be. However, I'm acutely aware that one segment of our population would vote to reduce all taxes to zero and will never vote to raise taxes, another segment of our population can't really afford to increase taxes beyond their current rate, another segment of our population won't vote for something that doesn't directly impact them regardless of what it means for the city's health overall. So additional funding for these things is very much an uphill battle. We're giving the "easy vote" of "keep taxes the same" to the project that most likely would win out even if it were an additional tax.

None of this is to say we don't need a new arena. We do. But it's coming at a steeper price than it needs to. It's worth noting that a large percentage of every penny we spend on interest for this project is about as tangible an opportunity cost as you will find in the market.

[Laramie]

If you think a 'quality of life' arena is going to get any less expensive, wait another decade--it will double to $1.8 billion, and you'll be in a bigger financial hole than you think the cost to replace Paycom Center is now.

Let's not forget, MAPS was crafted for Capital improvements. Had we dedicated more than $90 million (say $180 million) on this arena back in the 90s, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Build the 'best' arena for the long-term use for our city; then remodel every decade.

[BoulderSooner]

There are lots of different ways to spend this money (hence the concept of opportunity cost in general).

actually there are not ..

[sethsrott]

actually there are not ..

Exactly - There isn’t another option. It’s yes or no. This money isn’t sitting around in a safe somewhere that it can be spent somewhere else.

[Shortsyeararound]

PoliSciGuy- complain and argue against it all. After it passes complain some more. If the amount of homeless in our city is what your driving argument for the money usage is then why don't you start a kickstarter for funds to create something that you can be in charge of or let them filter in/out of your house.

[PoliSciGuy]

Nah I won’t complain when an outcome I’ve expected to happen for 6 months actually happens. Heck, I’ll still go to Thunder games and other events at the new arena and also vote for Holt for whatever office he runs for after mayor.

[David]

Exactly - There isn’t another option. It’s yes or no. This money isn’t sitting around in a safe somewhere that it can be spent somewhere else.

Counterpoint, isn't this whole question effectively the next MAPS project in terms of the sales tax penny that is getting continued? It's pretty easy to argue that if the powers that be weren't pushing for a new arena we'd be gearing up for an eventual MAPS 5 program with lots of smaller projects spread throughout the city. That absolutely counts as "lots of different ways to spend this money".

[Bellaboo]

Counterpoint, isn't this whole question effectively the next MAPS project in terms of the sales tax penny that is getting continued? It's pretty easy to argue that if the powers that be weren't pushing for a new arena we'd be gearing up for an eventual MAPS 5 program with lots of smaller projects spread throughout the city. That absolutely counts as "lots of different ways to spend this money".

The difference is MAPS has to wait for the money to be collected to be spent. This project will take out advanced loans so the arena can be constructed sooner.

[David]

The difference is MAPS has to wait for the money to be collected to be spent. This project will take out advanced loans so the arena can be constructed sooner.

True, but not really related to my point.

[Pete]

Just got my 3rd "vote yes" mailer today.

[Laramie]

If the Arena vote passes, let's get back to Capital Improvements, first a recommitment to aging city infrastructures and planning for the FUTURE.

More tourists' attractions like a world class DT Aquarium (partnered with OKC Zoo), finish the MAPS 4 multipurpose stadium with 20,000 seats, and a high-profile 625 ft Space Tower in DT Oklahoma City.

[Bill Robertson]

Just anecdotal but I was sitting in the bar area (20ish guys) of a sports bar yesterday and discussion was going around the bar about the vote. Majority was along the lines of "Not voting for since they're lying about no tax increase. Keeping the tax is the same thing as an increase" and "We don't need pro BB. It does nothing for me". I was kind of surprised.

[Bellaboo]

Just anecdotal but I was sitting in the bar area (20ish guys) of a sports bar yesterday and discussion was going around the bar about the vote. Majority was along the lines of "Not voting for since they're lying about no tax increase. Keeping the tax is the same thing as an increase" and "We don't need pro BB. It does nothing for me". I was kind of surprised.

You may be hanging with the wrong crowd !!! lol

[Bill Robertson]

You may be hanging with the wrong crowd !!! lol

They were just guys that happened to be there. I try to hang with better. lol

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^^
Just goes to show that anyone supporting the arena vote needs to vote without fail. Polling is promising, but a yes vote is FAR from guaranteed. This is one of the most important municipal elections in recent memory. Your vote is important.

[Dob Hooligan]

Just anecdotal but I was sitting in the bar area (20ish guys) of a sports bar yesterday and discussion was going around the bar about the vote. Majority was along the lines of "Not voting for since they're lying about no tax increase. Keeping the tax is the same thing as an increase" and "We don't need pro BB. It does nothing for me". I was kind of surprised.

One of the hard rules of elections is that young people rarely vote. I kinda wonder how many guys in their 20s who hang out at a bar are registered to vote?

[TheTravellers]

One of the hard rules of elections is that young people rarely vote. I kinda wonder how many guys in their 20s who hang out at a bar are registered to vote?

https://oklahomawatch.org/2023/04/03...cal-influence/

[PhiAlpha]

Just anecdotal but I was sitting in the bar area (20ish guys) of a sports bar yesterday and discussion was going around the bar about the vote. Majority was along the lines of "Not voting for since they're lying about no tax increase. Keeping the tax is the same thing as an increase" and "We don't need pro BB. It does nothing for me". I was kind of surprised.

You hanging with bunch of NERDS?!?

[Jersey Boss]

One of the hard rules of elections is that young people rarely vote. I kinda wonder how many guys in their 20s who hang out at a bar are registered to vote?

Even among registered voters there is low participation of voting in off year elections, let alone a single issue election.
Oklahoma ranks last in voter participation among all states.
https://ktul.com/news/local/oklahoma...-participation

[Laramie]

Got a feeling this vote will not be a sure thing. OKC has built everything passed by voters since MAPS 1- 4. MAPS 1 had to be scaled down--recall the DT arena had to be put on the back burner until more funding was approved.

City has learned from previous MAPS initiatives to include more funds needed to account for cost overruns and inflation.

Encourage your family and friends to get out the vote.