New Downtown Arena

[Dob Hooligan]

Based on how this deal has gone so far, I expect the numbers to go the wrong way or stay substantially the same and I think there's zero chance PBC signs a lease with early termination fees nor a lease without conditional opt out at around the 10 and 15 year marks.

I would hope the city starts with numbers slightly more aggressive than the above and make sure that if the Thunder's counteroffer is substantially far off from ours that it leak to the media that the Thunder are not negotiating in good faith and that a lease may not happen even though we voted to build them a new arena. Since absolutely nothing has come out on what has been discussed, it's not like the Thunder could call the city out. Post "Yes" vote will be the last and only time the city will have any negotiating power with the Thunder, but I don't expect we'll take the opportunity. We seem just to be grateful they're considering staying and don't believe we have much to offer.

The question I have is how do the proposed numbers you are putting out there compare to the overall US market? Just because you have an idea doesn't mean it is a realistic proposal (and I'm not suggesting it is or is not). I have no idea how the other team's deals are structured, and I doubt anyone else does, either. The NBA is a combination of single owners and multiple owners, plus probably 30 different levels of secrecy regarding each arena tenant agreement, arena management company, and arena ownership. I even read this morning that the Heat pay zero in Miami. No idea if that is true, but....

[Dob Hooligan]

I’m curious on if this is really socialism for billionaires though.

https://okcfox.com/news/local/social...der-arena-deal

Ms. Rawdah, executive director of Oklahoma Progress Now states this is the worst negotiated arena deal in NBA history, with zero verification or documentation listed in the article. Wish she would provide numbers.

[Teo9969]

I don't even go to Thunder games. Maybe 5 in my life.

But I know plenty of people from other cities (Portland, Hartford, CT, Birmingham, AL, etc.) and the first thing they mentioned when I said I was from OKC was "How about the Thunder?" So I know damn well how big the Thunder help OKC. No one ask about the Convention Center, or crappy roads, or anything you might think. So from a national perspective, OKC has very little, aside from the Thunder. I am not talking about locally. Of course we know more about OKC than they do. But perception is reality. The perception about OKC and Oklahoma, nationally, is not good. So having a positive like the Thunder is huge.

So, no, you haven't lived outside of Oklahoma?

[chssooner]

So, no, you haven't lived outside of Oklahoma?

No. I live in OKC, and have literally all my life. So I'm not sure what that has ro do with anything.

[Teo9969]

No. I live in OKC, and have literally all my life. So I'm not sure what that has ro do with anything.

I mean, it at least explains the concern for national perception. I get it...I've lived here most of my life as well. It's easy to conflate the rise of the city with the coming of the Thunder and be concerned for that legacy.

What I can tell you, having traveled and lived in other countries and spent time in other US Cities, is that more people than ever know about OKC because of the Thunder and that mostly translates to more people than ever not caring about OKC. Outside of the biggest basketball fans, nobody wants to come visit OKC because of the Thunder, no one wants to move here because of the Thunder. People do not care about this place any more than people in Oklahoma City care about Indianapolis or Leipzig. Perception is absolutely NOT reality, because people thinking whatever stereotype about my home city doesn't actually translate to me living that stereotype.

The biggest threats to OKC are A. The state of Oklahoma and B. The city of Oklahoma City. Nothing else comes close (I guess maybe if the Air Force closed Tinker).

Having not lived outside of Oklahoma is preventing many from understanding how dynamic cities of this size are and how to appropriately assess the impact of an amenity like the Thunder. Yes, we need to work to keep them, but it needs to be a measured approach and we need to understand what the cost/benefit really is.

Unfortunately, city leaders have largely determined that its citizens don't need that information presented to them.

[Teo9969]

The question I have is how do the proposed numbers you are putting out there compare to the overall US market? Just because you have an idea doesn't mean it is a realistic proposal (and I'm not suggesting it is or is not). I have no idea how the other team's deals are structured, and I doubt anyone else does, either. The NBA is a combination of single owners and multiple owners, plus probably 30 different levels of secrecy regarding each arena tenant agreement, arena management company, and arena ownership. I even read this morning that the Heat pay zero in Miami. No idea if that is true, but....

That Miami stuff looks to be true and was a pretty big failure on the mayor/city leadership at that time. At the same time, that arena was substantially cheaper than what we're being asked to build.

To turn the numbers questions on its head: how much would you be willing for the city to lose annually to keep the Thunder in OKC?

[Dob Hooligan]

That Miami stuff looks to be true and was a pretty big failure on the mayor/city leadership at that time. At the same time, that arena was substantially cheaper than what we're being asked to build.

To turn the numbers questions on its head: how much would you be willing for the city to lose annually to keep the Thunder in OKC?

I think the Thunder brings net value to OKC.

Lemme ask you this

How much you willing to lose to keep Scissortail Park?

The OKC Zoo?

The Convention Center?

The OKC Symphony/ballet/Broadway style shows?

Art museums?

[Dob Hooligan]

I think Miami's former American Airlines Arena and our former Ford Center were both built around 1997-ish. Miami's arena was around $200 million and Ford Center was under $100 million. Different times in the arena building biz.

[chssooner]

I mean, it at least explains the concern for national perception. I get it...I've lived here most of my life as well. It's easy to conflate the rise of the city with the coming of the Thunder and be concerned for that legacy.

What I can tell you, having traveled and lived in other countries and spent time in other US Cities, is that more people than ever know about OKC because of the Thunder and that mostly translates to more people than ever not caring about OKC. Outside of the biggest basketball fans, nobody wants to come visit OKC because of the Thunder, no one wants to move here because of the Thunder. People do not care about this place any more than people in Oklahoma City care about Indianapolis or Leipzig. Perception is absolutely NOT reality, because people thinking whatever stereotype about my home city doesn't actually translate to me living that stereotype.

The biggest threats to OKC are A. The state of Oklahoma and B. The city of Oklahoma City. Nothing else comes close (I guess maybe if the Air Force closed Tinker).

Having not lived outside of Oklahoma is preventing many from understanding how dynamic cities of this size are and how to appropriately assess the impact of an amenity like the Thunder. Yes, we need to work to keep them, but it needs to be a measured approach and we need to understand what the cost/benefit really is.

Unfortunately, city leaders have largely determined that its citizens don't need that information presented to them.

I didn't realize only OKC was corrupt and tried to pull the wool over its citizens' eyes. I appreciate you pointing that out to me. Glad to know we are the only corrupt city.

I get what you are saying, but OKC is unique in that, by all rights, they shouldn't have a team. No sports league would ever pick us for expansion, ever. So we have no leverage. I can't name one sport that has even thought about spitting in OKC's direction for an expansion team. that is my whole thing. OKC stole a team from Seattle. So if we lose them for basically the same reason we got them, then that is a bad look for OKC. And we won't get any pro team for a long, long, long, long, long time.

[Teo9969]

I think the Thunder brings net value to OKC.

Lemme ask you this

How much you willing to lose to keep Scissortail Park?

The OKC Zoo?

The Convention Center?

The OKC Symphony/ballet/Broadway style shows?

Art museums?

I'll answer those questions as soon as you answer mine

[Teo9969]

I didn't realize only OKC was corrupt and tried to pull the wool over its citizens' eyes. I appreciate you pointing that out to me. Glad to know we are the only corrupt city.

I get what you are saying, but OC is unique in that, by all rights, they shouldn't have a team. No sports league would ever pick us for expansion, ever. So we have no leverage. I can't name one sport that has even thought about spitting in OKC's direction for an expansion team. that is my whole thing. OKC stole a team from Seattle. So if we lose them for basically the same reason we got them, then that is a bad look for OKC. And we won't get any pro team for a long, long, long, long, long time.

I didn't say we were the only corrupt city, nor did I even say we are corrupt. That's an overly emotional take on my post.

Obviously if it came to losing the team getting another professional franchise within 10 years would be difficult, but much beyond that and the landscape will likely look a lot different from the perspective of what we have to offer, how many other cities balk at building arenas, and what expansion has looked like in the various leagues.

[Dob Hooligan]

I'll answer those questions as soon as you answer mine

Oh yes! Only fair.

I would give them whatever the Mayor and city staff negotiate. I trust our ownership to be fair minded, solid civic leaders who have not shown themselves to be city-screwing crooks...at an excessive level. I'm happy with our city and the direction leadership has embarked on over the last 30 years. I also don't think we will ever know the true cost of arenas and tenant deals.

I think of Seattle and the former Key Arena. We know it underwent a huge rebuild and is now known as Climate Pledge Arena. We hear it was privately financed and the cost is described as $1.1 billion plus. I recall when I was pretty regularly on the Sonics Rising website that Seattle people said there was a huge cost to properly bring parking, passenger rail access, water and sewer at the modern level needed to make the arena work properly. Now, I don't know who paid that, if it were included in the $1billion plus amount, or what is included in the way of tax and other financial incentives, etc... I do know that the group in charge of the arena deal and operations is Oak View Group, and former Eagles manager Irving Azoff is tops in OVG. The man Don Henley called "our Satan" at the Eagles Rock & Roll HOF induction speech.


So, who really knows what costs what? You either trust the parties involved or you don't. But don't expect the 100% God's honest truth.

[Teo9969]

Oh yes! Only fair.

I would give them whatever the Mayor and city staff negotiate. I trust our ownership to be fair minded, solid civic leaders who have not shown themselves to be city-screwing crooks...at an excessive level. I'm happy with our city and the direction leadership has embarked on over the last 30 years. I also don't think we will ever know the true cost of arenas and tenant deals.

I think of Seattle and the former Key Arena. We know it underwent a huge rebuild and is now known as Climate Pledge Arena. We hear it was privately financed and the cost is described as $1.1 billion plus. I recall when I was pretty regularly on the Sonics Rising website that Seattle people said there was a huge cost to properly bring parking, passenger rail access, water and sewer at the modern level needed to make the arena work properly. Now, I don't know who paid that, if it were included in the $1billion plus amount, or what is included in the way of tax and other financial incentives, etc... I do know that the group in charge of the arena deal and operations is Oak View Group, and former Eagles manager Irving Azoff is tops in OVG. The man Don Henley called "our Satan" at the Eagles Rock & Roll HOF induction speech.


So, who really knows what costs what? You either trust the parties involved or you don't. But don't expect the 100% God's honest truth.

Honest question, would you be good with building a $1B transit system and the city not report ridership numbers?

From my end, it's not that there's like this huge distrust of the people at play here. I don't think the Thunder ownership group is trying to absolutely gouge the city nor do I think the city is groveling to the ownership group. What I do feel like is happening is a disregard for the opportunity costs and a lack of concern for unnecessary line-item costs because I think for multiple reasons, it is wanted as fast as it can be done. While I understand the excitement, I don't personally support this approach to using public funds. I think too many people are caught up in "the deal" in terms of whether it's good or bad, take it or leave it, etc. when we should be thinking about why a new discussion of this deal, especially in light of the last 15 months of inflation and Federal Reserve response, is a worthy exercise. The world changed since these discussions started between the groups and I think if they started hammering out the deal today, it would look different.

[chssooner]

Honest question, would you be good with building a $1B transit system and the city not report ridership numbers?

From my end, it's not that there's like this huge distrust of the people at play here. I don't think the Thunder ownership group is trying to absolutely gouge the city nor do I think the city is groveling to the ownership group. What I do feel like is happening is a disregard for the opportunity costs and a lack of concern for unnecessary line-item costs because I think for multiple reasons, it is wanted as fast as it can be done. While I understand the excitement, I don't personally support this approach to using public funds. I think too many people are caught up in "the deal" in terms of whether it's good or bad, take it or leave it, etc. when we should be thinking about why a new discussion of this deal, especially in light of the last 15 months of inflation and Federal Reserve response, is a worthy exercise. The world changed since these discussions started between the groups and I think if they started hammering out the deal today, it would look different.

Didn't we already do that? Not $1b, but a lot of money.

[Jersey Boss]

I didn't realize only OKC was corrupt and tried to pull the wool over its citizens' eyes. I appreciate you pointing that out to me. Glad to know we are the only corrupt city.

I get what you are saying, but OKC is unique in that, by all rights, they shouldn't have a team. No sports league would ever pick us for expansion, ever. So we have no leverage. I can't name one sport that has even thought about spitting in OKC's direction for an expansion team. that is my whole thing. OKC stole a team from Seattle. So if we lose them for basically the same reason we got them, then that is a bad look for OKC. And we won't get any pro team for a long, long, long, long, long time.

Man you are so defensive. As a matter of fact the NHL did look at OKC as a possoble expansion market

[April in the Plaza]

Well you already have it set in your mind. No sense for city council to try now. You've got it handled.

And it is because we don't have much to offer! That is the point. We have no leverage. NO other team in OKC that we could hang out hat on. OU is in Norman, OSU, Stillwater. No team has ever mentioned OKC as ever a remote, possible relocation destination. People on here don't want to hear it, but what does OKC have to offer on a national, grand scale to compensate for losing the Thunder? Nothing, zip, nada.

If this is actually true, then the city isn’t “big league” even if the team remains in place.

[chssooner]

If this is actually true, then the city isn’t “big league” even if the team remains in place.

No. With the Thunder, we gave something to offer on a national scale. People all over the country know the Thunder. We lose them, we truly do have nothing on that scale. Nice try, though ��

[OUGrad05]

Man guys there's a lot of back and forth here and some if it is taking others posts out of context or sure seems that way. I was also generally on the fence about the new arena at its proposed cost. At $600mil it's a no brainer. At a billion dollars I had some trepidation. I realize the official price tag isn't $1 billion but there will likely be cost overruns so just plan on it being a $1 billion dollar arena.
As I dug into the details, it appears the cost to OKC tax payers will be closer to $700 million when the dust settles that's due to the small contribution from the team owners and that out of town folks spend a lot of money in OKC. While that is no small sum for a city of our size I believe it adds a tremendous amount of tangible and intangible value to the city. Having the team here for another 25 years is a huge win for OKC. While you can't put hard numbers on this, I do believe it makes us more competitive when attracting corporate jobs, headquarters and the like. We are very unlikely to ever get a pro football team due to the impact on two local schools (OU and OSU) and a city of our size and growth trajectory need a major sports and entertainment venue to be taken seriously in the corporate world. The other big issue we need to tackle is education and that's more of a state problem that we can discuss in another thread.

OKC used to miss relocation of companies due in part to terrible infrastructure, roads, parks, etc...no entertainment for employees, safety and education. We've largely tackled most of those making us much more competitive and the city currently carries tremendous momentum. Not keeping the Thunder won't doom the city, but will take us out of the national spotlight and in the years that immediately follow will make it much more difficult to attract good jobs and corporate relo's to the metro area.

[PhiAlpha]

I’m curious on if this is really socialism for billionaires though.

https://okcfox.com/news/local/social...der-arena-deal

LOL these OPN people are full of crap.

[Rover]

Man you are so defensive. As a matter of fact the NHL did look at OKC as a possoble expansion market

For about a minute.

[chssooner]

Man you are so defensive. As a matter of fact the NHL did look at OKC as a possoble expansion market

Maybe so, and I apologize for seemingly that way.

And sure, they did, until we lost out for reasons thst exist today. That's the problem, and why us losing a team will mean us likely never getting a shot at another.

[Rover]

I’m curious on if this is really socialism for billionaires though.

https://okcfox.com/news/local/social...der-arena-deal

You do realize socialism would be the city taking over the operation of the Thunder and controlling it as an awful lot of the posters here want, right? Doubt any billionaires here want socialism.

[mugofbeer]

OKC used to miss relocation of companies due in part to terrible infrastructure, roads, parks, etc...no entertainment for employees, safety and education. We've largely tackled most of those making us much more competitive and the city currently carries tremendous momentum. Not keeping the Thunder won't doom the city, but will take us out of the national spotlight and in the years that immediately follow will make it much more difficult to attract good jobs and corporate relo's to the metro area.

If you think OKCs infrastructure is any worse than most anywhere else, you must not travel much.

[Teo9969]

If you think OKCs infrastructure is any worse than most anywhere else, you must not travel much.

He said "used to"

[mugofbeer]

True. My bad.