New Downtown Arena

[HangryHippo]

A "Big 4" sports team is still the biggest ticket to arrival. Nothing else is close for the overall reach across all social and economic platforms. Nothing. Not the symphony, the church, the zoo, nightlife etc.

^^^^
This.

[PhiAlpha]

Thanks Urbanized, all good info and I completely forgot about point #5 being brought up recently...

As far as the renderings "obsession", very few people will buy a car or a house or a washer/dryer or damn near anything without seeing what it will look like first (at least a somewhat general idea). Humans are very visual animals, and most probably don't want to spend time and effort trying to understand via words what the arena will look like, they want it spoon-fed to them via pretty pictures (or at least a general idea). Enough of you work for companies that have higher-ups that just want charts or pictures or graphs or one-paragraph "executive summaries" instead of having to read pages and figure it out themselves, so you know the analogy...

Sorry, I wasn’t really directing that at you as much as the fact that this thread has gone around and around obsessing over renderings, or the lack thereof, for months.

I get how they would be helpful, I just don’t think it’s near as big of deal as people here are making it.

[SouthOKC]

Sorry, I wasn’t really directing that at you as much as the fact that this thread has gone around and around obsessing over renderings, or the lack thereof, for months.

I get how they would be helpful, I just don’t think it’s near as big of deal as people here are making it.

I don’t think it’s a as simple as wanting renderings.

I think it’s an apparently old fashioned value of, show me what I’m getting for my money. Give us something that allows some form of accountability, transparency, and insight. The process could’ve been handled in a completely different way from the start with the Mayor. It really comes off as the chosen approach/strategy to get this passed. Give us $900M+ now to build an arena that’s been discussed since Mick Cornett was mayor. However, now we need it to be ready once the current lease is up so now the public needs to pay the interest bill too.

[Rover]

After a conversation the other evening with someone very close to the arena effort on the City's side, I'm 100% convinced the Thunder does NOT have drawings. Reasons why:

1. The expense of the drawings for this CITY-OWNED building will 100% fall upon the City, or more specifically upon the project budget. Those funds yet don't exist, because the project is not yet approved by voters..
2. Drawings will cost millions. Spending a bunch of money to have drawings done for a project that they are only SPECULATING will be passed would be foolhardy for the Thunder, and basically illegal for the City.
3. The actual project site has yet to be determined. Really. The space available on the site will drive many design decisions.
4. While there are surely finish levels, plus certain features and interior configurations clearly desired by parties involved, believe it or not those parties would like to see what a qualified A&E firm comes up with, after everything is decided and after there are funds in place to pay for the full design treatment. Why paint the real project into a corner by doing preliminary design work for a tiny fraction of the final design cost?
5. Last but not least, if the Thunder engaged with a firm now to design some sort of "mood board" type of rendering, said firm would be disqualified from submitting a proposal for the real project, once it's approved and funded. No qualified firm hoping to bid on this work would get within a mile of JUST doing a conceptual rendering. They want the actual job, which by itself will represent millions of dollars in income to whoever is selected.

When this project is passed, design work will take many months if not a year or more. And it will be done by a qualified, selected A&E firm using full funding and best practices; not an artist making pretty pictures for campaign ads.

Preach the truth! AMEN

[PhiAlpha]

I don’t think it’s a as simple as wanting renderings.

I think it’s an apparently old fashioned value of, show me what I’m getting for my money. Give us something that allows some form of accountability, transparency, and insight. The process could’ve been handled in a completely different way from the start with the Mayor. It really comes off as the chosen approach/strategy to get this passed. Give us $900M+ now to build an arena that’s been discussed since Mick Cornett was mayor. However, now we need it to be ready once the current lease is up so now the public needs to pay the interest bill too.

You don’t need renderings for that. A list of specs that the arena will meet and features it will include would be more than enough. Though I don’t think they’ve done that with any level of detail either so I guess the point is moot.

[Sonicthunder]

I would think that multiple firms would’ve already submitted preliminary designs I get that the actual blueprints and stuff cost millions but I think we learn more before the vote

[Sonicthunder]

I looked at a pic of Dallas when AA arena was built and there was nothing surrounding it, it’s night and day I think if they choose to build on the co op site that would be a development magnet

[Teo9969]

You don’t need renderings for that. A list of specs that the arena will meet and features it will include would be more than enough. Though I don’t think they’ve done that with any level of detail either so I guess the point is moot.

Agreed

[Rover]

I would think that multiple firms would’ve already submitted preliminary designs I get that the actual blueprints and stuff cost millions but I think we learn more before the vote

Read Urbanized and understand that’s not how it happens, and for good reason.

[Rover]

I would think that multiple firms would’ve already submitted preliminary designs I get that the actual blueprints and stuff cost millions but I think we learn more before the vote

I don’t think many people understand what goes into designing. It’s not just creating pretty and dramatic pictures of things that will never be built. There’s a difference between art and design.

[Teo9969]

A "Big 4" sports team is still the biggest ticket to arrival. Nothing else is close for the overall reach across all social and economic platforms. Nothing. Not the symphony, the church, the zoo, nightlife etc.

I guess the question is "what are you wanting to arrive to?"

I have no interest in ever visiting or knowing more about Indianapolis, Jacksonville, Cleveland, Sacramento, Baltimore. I'm substantially interested in the prospects of visiting Hartford, Santa Fe, Salem, Paso Robles, Boise, Birmingham, Virginia Beach. I'd bet most of us could make a list of "Big 4" league cities that are a complete yawn and fill a must-see list with cities that would be happy with just a minor league team.

Is it just pure name recognition that determines we've arrived?

I agree that few things come close to the reach: I'd argue ACL and SxSW do more for Austin than the Thunder does for OKC, Disney obviously does circles around every sports franchise in the world, and if Boston had to choose between the Marathon and the Celtics, it would be a hotly debated topic. Perhaps the Thunder are our easiest ticket to being on people's radar, but this idea that there's no path without it and that we're not already on the path is just not based in truth. It's an expedient argument for why we must vote yes or the sky will fall.

[chssooner]

I guess the question is "what are you wanting to arrive to?"

I have no interest in ever visiting or knowing more about Indianapolis, Jacksonville, Cleveland, Sacramento, Baltimore. I'm substantially interested in the prospects of visiting Hartford, Santa Fe, Salem, Paso Robles, Boise, Birmingham, Virginia Beach. I'd bet most of us could make a list of "Big 4" league cities that are a complete yawn and fill a must-see list with cities that would be happy with just a minor league team.

Is it just pure name recognition that determines we've arrived?

I agree that few things come close to the reach: I'd argue ACL and SxSW do more for Austin than the Thunder does for OKC, Disney obviously does circles around every sports franchise in the world, and if Boston had to choose between the Marathon and the Celtics, it would be a hotly debated topic. Perhaps the Thunder are our easiest ticket to being on people's radar, but this idea that there's no path without it and that we're not already on the path is just not based in truth. It's an expedient argument for why we must vote yes or the sky will fall.

What in the name of ask that is good and holy did I just read? OKC has no world-class festivals to compete with this. It takes someone wanting to run a festival here. There has never been a large festival here, and likely never will be. Nothing OKC can really do about that. Repairing roads won't make it more likely to have a large festival, as Austin's roads are not that great, either. Same with curing homelessness (lol at Ausitn having no homeless problem). OKC has to work with the advantages it has. Why remove one of their biggest advantages (the Thunder)? Why not use a new arena as a catalyst to continue growth?

[Teo9969]

What in the name of ask that is good and holy did I just read? OKC has no world-class festivals to compete with this. It takes someone wanting to run a festival here. There has never been a large festival here, and likely never will be. Nothing OKC can really do about that. Repairing roads won't make it more likely to have a large festival, as Austin's roads are not that great, either. Same with curing homelessness (lol at Ausitn having no homeless problem). OKC has to work with the advantages it has. Why remove one of their biggest advantages (the Thunder)? Why not use a new arena as a catalyst to continue growth?

What is the plan to leverage the Thunder to get us there? The Thunder have no doubt had a positive impact on OKC, but I fail to see what they are going to do differently to take us to where we're going rather than where we are/have been. A new arena, if it is designed in such a way that creates a world class public experience (i.e. not only ticket paying experience) could definitely move the needle but that doesn't appear to be part of the package we're voting on. I believe we're voting strictly on an arena made explicitly for the events inside the arena (and I guess landmark architecture would be involved).

Losing the Thunder would set the city back, but I've yet to see a clear message from the city or PBC that the Thunder are a lock to leave on a "No" vote here. PBC has said nothing of substance. I believe the Mayor is really only on record saying there are no plans for another vote. That makes sense because the city assumes this will pass.

If this vote fails, Mayor Holt will not throw up his hands and say "well, we tried", he'll do what he was elected to do and lead the city working a new proposal as quickly as he can to assuage the concerns of PBC that OKC is a viable choice. PBC will field calls from all manner of buyers and will ultimately elect to hold on because they know a huge media rights deal is coming, they have a competitive team, they don't need the money and they would come to believe that OKC will "come to their senses" and get an arena built within a reasonable time frame (vote in 2024). This is a business decision, yes, but with a hefty dose of emotion. The owners would never WANT to sell the Thunder, especially before they win it all. When they can let go of the emotion, it will be strictly business, but now is not the best time to do so from a business perspective and worse time from an emotional perspective.

[Teo9969]

By the way, the various Horse Shows throughout the year are a substantial economic engine that brings international attention (and visitors) to the city. So, the purported lack of world-class events is factually incorrect.

[PhiAlpha]

Agreed

Aye! We agree on something (not unusual outside of this discussion but still noteworthy lol).

[PhiAlpha]

I don’t think many people understand what goes into designing. It’s not just creating pretty and dramatic pictures of things that will never be built. There’s a difference between art and design.

You, sir, must not know Rainey Williams.

[Teo9969]

You, sir, must not know Rainey Williams.

[Mississippi Blues]

You, sir, must not know Rainey Williams.

Now there’s a man that would make any city jealous to not have, especially Kansas City and Dallas.

[Rover]

You, sir, must not know Rainey Williams.

So, there you go. Everybody got their pretty pictures. Then, how did that work out?

[Mississippi Blues]

So, there you go. Everybody got their pretty pictures. Then, how did that work out?

You don’t think that’s downtown OKC’s finest block?

[BoulderSooner]

I would think that multiple firms would’ve already submitted preliminary designs

there is not yet a RFP no one has submitted anything ..

there are likely multiple firms that have had internal meetings .. that go something like this .. " did you hear OKC has a vote for a new arena? yes i did lets have (insert intern) track that and we can circle back if it passes"

[Bill Robertson]

I would think that multiple firms would’ve already submitted preliminary designs I get that the actual blueprints and stuff cost millions but I think we learn more before the vote

Not likely. Similar to a post before if some firm's renderings were accepted and used before the project goes for open bids the other bidders would complain that the firm had an illegal advantage. Or that firm simply wouldn't bid and why do that to yourself.

[SouthOKC]

So, there you go. Everybody got their pretty pictures. Then, how did that work out?

I’d love to work with you on your next home build. I’ll need $600k before starting any design work. When can you have the initial payment ready?

[Anonymous.]

To the people who keep asking about renderings and locations specifics. This is directly from the Mayor-endorsed website FAQs.

Where will the new arena be?

Much like every major city investment in projects, an exact location will not be determined until voters decide whether or not to move forward. It would be unwise to spend the resources to determine the best location until we have approval. The ordinance does specify that the arena will be in the downtown core. It is important for the arena to be downtown so we can take advantage of the synergy with the new convention center, Scissortail Park, and the more than 20 hotels that have been opened in the area since the Thunder came to OKC.

[SouthOKC]

To the people who keep asking about renderings and locations specifics. This is directly from the Mayor-endorsed website FAQs.

Why didn’t Clay Bennett come with a plan like he did in Renton? He committed $100M in that case toward a $500M arena at the time. Why wasn’t that same path followed in our case?