New Downtown Arena

[Jersey Boss]

Seems like the plans for this arena are as secret as the financial records of the Fairgrounds

[chestercheetah]

Does anyone have a link to the old convention center concept rendering that was inspired by a rose rock (I believe it was before the east park location was chosen)? I always thought that was a really cool concept and wanted to remind myself of what it looked like. I wonder if that idea could be revisited for the new arena (assuming it passes).

I posted this last year... https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.p...t=#post1210902

[Urbanized]

Seems like the plans for this arena are as secret as the financial records of the Fairgrounds

There ARE no plans. They literally cannot officially land on a location OR hire an architect to draw plans until taxpayers have approved the initiative. I’m not sure why this is so difficult for posters here to understand.

[Plutonic Panda]

There ARE no plans. They literally cannot officially land on a location OR hire an architect to draw plans until taxpayers have approved the initiative. I’m not sure why this is so difficult for posters here to understand.

So how’d they do that with MAPS 3?

[ABryant]

The only thing maps 3 that was known was the location of the park. I could be wrong.

[SouthOKC]

There ARE no plans. They literally cannot officially land on a location OR hire an architect to draw plans until taxpayers have approved the initiative. I’m not sure why this is so difficult for posters here to understand.

They should have plans if they’re asking for $900M+. That would amount to the most asinine approach for constructing the single most expensive structure ever built in Oklahoma City.

You need to realize that just because a piece of paper says it should be a certain way doesn’t mean that it is that way. Everything isn’t as black and white as you’d like for us to believe. You can quote the statues and laws all you want but it doesn’t prevent the Thunder from contracting an architectural firm and presenting plans to David Holt.

We’re talking about Clay Bennett here…the same guy (bless his heart) that stated under oath he sent an email to Tom Ward and Aubrey discussing how he was doing everything in his power to keep the team in Seattle. That same Clay Bennett that’s openly talked about 10 years ago discussing new arena plans with Mick Cornett.

I doubt his conversations have all been hypothetical and completely vague conceptually. This isn’t David Holt asking the citizens to fund a hypothetical building. This is the Thunder telling David Holt get the city to pay for this specific facility or we’re going to explore alternative avenues for selling/moving the team. Don’t get it confused.

[ShadowStrings]

I posted this last year... https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.p...t=#post1210902

Thank you!

[bombermwc]

Someone asked if there are renderings. Nope. Holt has plainly said that they aren't anywhere near that. I think that's a flawed approach to pursuing this. We need something to show people. Something they can see and "touch", not just an idea. At every step of the MAPs votes, we had something to look at and see what we were getting for our vote. It's so weird to me that we don't this time. It's like someone walked out of a meeting, through together a quick Powerpoint background, and just started talking to the public.

I've lived here all my life and so I experienced OKC before it's rebirth. I'll pretty much always vote Yes on MAPs programs (if i live in OKC) because I dont want us to go back to what it was. We've made so much progress and I want to keep that momentum going. But if you abuse that trust of the people and just assume that they will go along, it's dangerous territory and the start of a no vote. And to me, the city has over-estimated their footing. This is different. This is the first time we've been in this particular position. We've put millions upon millions into the Maps/Ford/Peak/Pay/whatever. It's an arena for another era now, but it doesn't FEEL like it to the average attendee. When we had places like the Boston or the Garden hanging around for 40 years, some people question why OKC needs this now.

To be clear, I'm not one of them. But what I'm saying is, the city isn't doing their job to explain it, campaign it, push for it. It's almost as if they don't really want it. It's very weird. The lack of it being in our face is unusual.

[SouthOKC]

Someone asked if there are renderings. Nope. Holt has plainly said that they aren't anywhere near that. I think that's a flawed approach to pursuing this. We need something to show people. Something they can see and "touch", not just an idea. At every step of the MAPs votes, we had something to look at and see what we were getting for our vote. It's so weird to me that we don't this time. It's like someone walked out of a meeting, through together a quick Powerpoint background, and just started talking to the public.

I've lived here all my life and so I experienced OKC before it's rebirth. I'll pretty much always vote Yes on MAPs programs (if i live in OKC) because I dont want us to go back to what it was. We've made so much progress and I want to keep that momentum going. But if you abuse that trust of the people and just assume that they will go along, it's dangerous territory and the start of a no vote. And to me, the city has over-estimated their footing. This is different. This is the first time we've been in this particular position. We've put millions upon millions into the Maps/Ford/Peak/Pay/whatever. It's an arena for another era now, but it doesn't FEEL like it to the average attendee. When we had places like the Boston or the Garden hanging around for 40 years, some people question why OKC needs this now.

To be clear, I'm not one of them. But what I'm saying is, the city isn't doing their job to explain it, campaign it, push for it. It's almost as if they don't really want it. It's very weird. The lack of it being in our face is unusual.

This biggest difference is this isn’t MAPS. It’s not the city working to create interest in a dead downtown/CBD area of Oklahoma City. It’s not the city trying to revive buildings that are 40 years old and falling apart. It’s not the city using funds to speculate on how we can increase quality of life to retain young professionals.

This is the Thunder ownership group working for years with the Mayors office to construct a new building. A building that allows the Thunder to sell more suites and areas for corporate sponsorship. It’s businessmen holding the people/city hostage to their demands for increased revenue stream via an arena or they will move/sell the team.

Simply put in my opinion:
This is about 1 entity needing to make more money so they can remain competitive in the NBA. The Warriors paid a $100M+ luxury tax bill and the Thunder are facing a similar number in the near future if they keep the core of their team together.

[April in the Plaza]

This biggest difference is this isn’t MAPS. It’s not the city working to create interest in a dead downtown/CBD area of Oklahoma City. It’s not the city trying to revive buildings that are 40 years old and falling apart. It’s not the city using funds to speculate on how we can increase quality of life to retain young professionals.

This is the Thunder ownership group working for years with the Mayors office to construct a new building. A building that allows the Thunder to sell more suites and areas for corporate sponsorship. It’s businessmen holding the people/city hostage to their demands for increased revenue stream via an arena or they will move/sell the team.

Simply put in my opinion:
This is about 1 entity needing to make more money so they can remain competitive in the NBA. The Warriors paid a $100M+ luxury tax bill and the Thunder are facing a similar number in the near future if they keep the core of their team together.

I don’t pretend to fully understand the new CBA, but I thought it is now awfully difficult to construct a roster if a team’s payroll comes in over the 2nd Apron. It is set at $17.5M above the tax threshold at the moment.

Looks like a team right at the 2nd Apron would owe about $57M if it’s not a repeat offender.

[BoulderSooner]

This biggest difference is this isn’t MAPS. It’s not the city working to create interest in a dead downtown/CBD area of Oklahoma City. It’s not the city trying to revive buildings that are 40 years old and falling apart. It’s not the city using funds to speculate on how we can increase quality of life to retain young professionals.

This is the Thunder ownership group working for years with the Mayors office to construct a new building. A building that allows the Thunder to sell more suites and areas for corporate sponsorship. It’s businessmen holding the people/city hostage to their demands for increased revenue stream via an arena or they will move/sell the team.

Simply put in my opinion:
This is about 1 entity needing to make more money so they can remain competitive in the NBA. The Warriors paid a $100M+ luxury tax bill and the Thunder are facing a similar number in the near future if they keep the core of their team together.

this is almost entirely incorrect .. the current arena can't support 2 different concerts back to back ..

it is outdated irrespective of the thunder .. because of loading docks and a bunch of other things ..

[PhiAlpha]

Someone asked if there are renderings. Nope. Holt has plainly said that they aren't anywhere near that. I think that's a flawed approach to pursuing this. We need something to show people. Something they can see and "touch", not just an idea. At every step of the MAPs votes, we had something to look at and see what we were getting for our vote. It's so weird to me that we don't this time. It's like someone walked out of a meeting, through together a quick Powerpoint background, and just started talking to the public.

I've lived here all my life and so I experienced OKC before it's rebirth. I'll pretty much always vote Yes on MAPs programs (if i live in OKC) because I dont want us to go back to what it was. We've made so much progress and I want to keep that momentum going. But if you abuse that trust of the people and just assume that they will go along, it's dangerous territory and the start of a no vote. And to me, the city has over-estimated their footing. This is different. This is the first time we've been in this particular position. We've put millions upon millions into the Maps/Ford/Peak/Pay/whatever. It's an arena for another era now, but it doesn't FEEL like it to the average attendee. When we had places like the Boston or the Garden hanging around for 40 years, some people question why OKC needs this now.

To be clear, I'm not one of them. But what I'm saying is, the city isn't doing their job to explain it, campaign it, push for it. It's almost as if they don't really want it. It's very weird. The lack of it being in our face is unusual.

While obviously not as much money, we also put millions upon millions into the Myriad/Cox convention center through public initiatives and then a MAPS project only to replace it with MAPS 3.

[SouthOKC]

this is almost entirely incorrect .. the current arena can't support 2 different concerts back to back ..

it is outdated irrespective of the thunder .. because of loading docks and a bunch of other things ..

I’m sorry but you’re wrong…this is absolutely the truth. Let’s not pretend everyone is backing this so we can better plan the shipping docks. Lol

[chssooner]

I’m sorry but you’re wrong…this is absolutely the truth. Let’s not pretend everyone is backing this so we can better plan the shipping docks. Lol

That may not be the main reason, but it is a secondary benefit. Bands and artists who don't consider OKC and go to Tulsa all the time are mainly doing it because of the loading docks, and the ability to get large, exorbitant production stages set up. OKC's arena is notoriously difficult for those.

So you are half-right. It isn't the main reason for this new arena, but it is something OKC can remedy from the Paycom Center. And getting a few new, large-scale shows for OKC will benefit a lot more than just the wealthy.

[SouthOKC]

I don’t pretend to fully understand the new CBA, but I thought it is now awfully difficult to construct a roster if a team’s payroll comes in over the 2nd Apron. It is set at $17.5M above the tax threshold at the moment.

Looks like a team right at the 2nd Apron would owe about $57M if it’s not a repeat offender.

I believe the NBA is set to renegotiate its TV deal. I have read they’re aiming for double/triple the current agreement.

It’s my belief we have 3 potential “super max” players and who knows what those salaries will be when those players are eligible. If Shai, Chet, Jalen Williams all reach super max status you’re at cap without some of the protections that used to exist. I believe allowing more than 2 super max players is new to this CBA. Keep in mind the Thunder are loaded with picks for the upcoming draft in 2024. They will have to pay if this roster pans out. Based on what I have seen it’s not as harsh on teams with homegrown talent that won’t dip into the buyout market. Including being able to sign existing talent with more favorable tax break. However, you have a small-market team staring down penalties put in place for big market spenders.

I’m no expert either when it comes to the CBA, but I don’t think there is anything in place that prevents you from spending well Into the 2nd apron.

Based on the new TV deal the Thunder could potentially have an annual payroll cost of $300M/year.

[SouthOKC]

That may not be the main reason, but it is a secondary benefit. Bands and artists who don't consider OKC and go to Tulsa all the time are mainly doing it because of the loading docks, and the ability to get large, exorbitant production stages set up. OKC's arena is notoriously difficult for those.

So you are half-right. It isn't the main reason for this new arena, but it is something OKC can remedy from the Paycom Center. And getting a few new, large-scale shows for OKC will benefit a lot more than just the wealthy.

I can agree there are definitely additional benefits that will come from this project. I wish we had a better understanding on what all of those benefits could potentially look like.

[Laramie]

We've put a lot of trust in Mayor David Holt. Apparently, if you've listened carefully to his comments; he (IMO) has seen something or there's some kind of sketch with specifications on a new arena.

How did you (City & ownership) arrive at a minimum $900 million figure.

We all know MAPS was crafted in secrecy to avoid critics and hype that would have doomed its launch. The original MAPS cost $350 million; now we're talking about $900 million - $1,050 billion state-of-the-art arena that will cost the taxpayers 3x what the 9 projects (1993) cost in MAPS proposed 30 years ago.

If the old Ford site is being offered thru the ownership group--we know that site is overpriced. That site was overpriced for the new convention center.

If our city needs a $900 million+ new downtown arena, for the taxpayers' sake, let us know the site; also justify why we need a $900 million capital investment to build a new downtown arena.

[ditm4567]

There ARE no plans. They literally cannot officially land on a location OR hire an architect to draw plans until taxpayers have approved the initiative. I’m not sure why this is so difficult for posters here to understand.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink...I think part of the "issue" is that many posters do not understand that when government/government money is involved, it is a step by step basis--why would the city go spend money on an architect before they even know the arena is approved? Imagine the outcry from taxpayers if they learned the city is spending money for a hypothetical arena.

The entire process is a catch-22 scenario where no one will ever be happy.

[SEMIweather]

I believe the NBA is set to renegotiate its TV deal. I have read they’re aiming for double/triple the current agreement.

It’s my belief we have 3 potential “super max” players and who knows what those salaries will be when those players are eligible. If Shai, Chet, Jalen Williams all reach super max status you’re at cap without some of the protections that used to exist. I believe allowing more than 2 super max players is new to this CBA. Keep in mind the Thunder are loaded with picks for the upcoming draft in 2024. They will have to pay if this roster pans out. Based on what I have seen it’s not as harsh on teams with homegrown talent that won’t dip into the buyout market. Including being able to sign existing talent with more favorable tax break. However, you have a small-market team staring down penalties put in place for big market spenders.

I’m no expert either when it comes to the CBA, but I don’t think there is anything in place that prevents you from spending well Into the 2nd apron.

Based on the new TV deal the Thunder could potentially have an annual payroll cost of $300M/year.

I don't want to completely derail this thread but I do just want to state that I think doubling and/or tripling the current TV revenue is going to be difficult to achieve given that the sports media rights bubble seems to be starting to shrink.

[BoulderSooner]

I believe the NBA is set to renegotiate its TV deal. I have read they’re aiming for double/triple the current agreement.

and it very much remains to be seen if they get close to their projections .. football the NBA is not

[Dob Hooligan]

I believe the NBA is set to renegotiate its TV deal. I have read they’re aiming for double/triple the current agreement.

It’s my belief we have 3 potential “super max” players and who knows what those salaries will be when those players are eligible. If Shai, Chet, Jalen Williams all reach super max status you’re at cap without some of the protections that used to exist. I believe allowing more than 2 super max players is new to this CBA. Keep in mind the Thunder are loaded with picks for the upcoming draft in 2024. They will have to pay if this roster pans out. Based on what I have seen it’s not as harsh on teams with homegrown talent that won’t dip into the buyout market. Including being able to sign existing talent with more favorable tax break. However, you have a small-market team staring down penalties put in place for big market spenders.

I’m no expert either when it comes to the CBA, but I don’t think there is anything in place that prevents you from spending well Into the 2nd apron.

Based on the new TV deal the Thunder could potentially have an annual payroll cost of $300M/year.

I think the second apron is very punitive. Not just money, but the ability to trade and sign players becomes very difficult. If the media rights deal increases revenue, then I think it will fall into the BRI (Basketball Related Income) formula that already exists and splits 50/50-ish with the players.

I think the only reason the Thunder went so deep into the Luxury Tax during the PG13 years was ownership was very concerned Clay Bennett was going to die and they wanted to give him the best chance to get a ring. Thankfully he appears to be recovered.

[SouthOKC]

I don't want to completely derail this thread but I do just want to state that I think doubling and/or tripling the current TV revenue is going to be difficult to achieve given that the sports media rights bubble seems to be starting to shrink.

That could very well end up being the case and the new TV rights deal only creates slight increases to the salary cap.

My overall point was 3 super max players put you at the cap no matter the number. It’s based on percentages of the team cap.

[PhiAlpha]

I think the second apron is very punitive. Not just money, but the ability to trade and sign players becomes very difficult. If the media rights deal increases revenue, then I think it will fall into the BRI (Basketball Related Income) formula that already exists and splits 50/50-ish with the players.

I think the only reason the Thunder went so deep into the Luxury Tax during the PG13 years was ownership was very concerned Clay Bennett was going to die and they wanted to give him the best chance to get a ring. Thankfully he appears to be recovered.

I think they did it because they had an extremely unique opportunity to replace KD with another superstar level player and took it. They always planned to be deep into the luxury tax during KD and Westbrook’s primes and would still be doing so if KD had stayed. All of those decisions were made, including acquiring PG and Melo (summer 2017) well before Bennett had any kind of surgery related to cancer in mid 2018. His health condition had nothing to do with the thunders financial plans regarding when and how long they would pay the tax.

[SouthOKC]

I think the second apron is very punitive. Not just money, but the ability to trade and sign players becomes very difficult. If the media rights deal increases revenue, then I think it will fall into the BRI (Basketball Related Income) formula that already exists and splits 50/50-ish with the players.

I think the only reason the Thunder went so deep into the Luxury Tax during the PG13 years was ownership was very concerned Clay Bennett was going to die and they wanted to give him the best chance to get a ring. Thankfully he appears to be recovered.

This is an extremely important point in my mind.

Based on the current roster the Thunder better be prepared to go well into the luxury tax if warranted. Right now we’re buying into the exposure and benefits of the NBA and it’s brand. Meaning playoffs, Finals, and a potential championship parade. While there are no guarantees it would be very disappointing if we fund this arena only to have ownership cheap out and pocket new TV money.

[warreng88]

By the way, SGA just signed a five year $180MM contract with OKC and his first year in the contract was last year. So, his contract will come up in 2026/2027. CBS is predicting he will be the first $400MM contract in history. Jaylen Brown signed a $304MM contract starting this year.

Chet is signed through 2026/2027 with the last year being a qualified offer.
Lu is signed through 2026/2027 with the last year being a team option.
Giddey is signed through 2025/2026 with 2024/2025 being a team option and 2025/2026 being a qualified offer.
Cason Wallace is signed through 2027/2028 with 2025-2027 being team options and 2027/2028 being a qualified offer.
Jalen Williams is signed through 2026/2027 with 2024-2026 being a team option and 2026/2027 being a qualified offer.
Ousmane Dieng is signed through 2026/2027 with 2024-2026 being a team option and 2026/2027 being a qualified offer.

Needless to say, that 2026/2027 will be a stressful year.