New Downtown Arena

[LocoAko]

I feel like I have read the same arguments over and over again for months. I'm glad there gets to be a community discussion over this but yikes... It wouldn't hurt to leave this thread alone until we have renderings or something cause nothing has changed.

So there should be no further discussion until after the vote, then?

[SouthOKC]

I don’t care if the city could have and should have been more transparent during this process. I dont care if the owners of the team pay a dime for it. I’d vote yes if the proposal was for a $2 Billion arena and the city had to pay $5 billion out of pocket to built it with a guarantee that it would never recoup the cost. If you haven’t lived here since prior to 2008 and you’re against this…your opinion is trash…you don’t get it…go back to where you came from (I’m looking at you PoliSciBoy)

I was at our first playoff win in 2010 when no one gave us a chance and we came back from 18 down against the eventual NBA champion Lakers as a poor college student. It was one of the best environments I’ve ever experienced. I’ve never been in a stadium louder than that. One of the coolest sports experiences I’ve ever had. Winning the next game and then seeing the crowd give the team a standing ovation after we narrowly lost game 6 of that series was one of the coolest sports scenes I’ve ever seen.

I was also there in during game 6 against the spurs in 2012 when we knocked them off after trailing for most of 3 quarters which propelled us to the finals. The party spilled out into bricktown. It was all a massive affirmation to the progress we’ve made as a city for those who believed in OKC and decided to plant roots and stick around here.

If you weren’t here for any of that or the dumpster fire that the city was before MAPS/the Thunder/etc then you just don’t get it. If you left or just came back after things got better or moved here for whatever reason later on and aren’t for this plan…you don’t know crap about this city and I’m sure some other city would be happy to have you if you don’t like the plan and want to leave.

April in the Plaza, PoliSciBoy, and JoBethHamas can go kick rocks. Your opinions are trash. You are a bunch of freaking losers. I’m sorry that the big mean basketball players stuffed you in your lockers in high school.

Really wish we still had the OKCTalk meet ups so we could see who some of these nerds really are. Hallelujah. Holly Sh*t. Where’s the Tylenol. TEXAS SUCKS!

I feel like you should step back and consider how the opposite viewpoints are a product of OKCs success. JoBeth is a direct byproduct of the attractiveness downtown OKC offers. We wanted diversity and we wanted young professionals so that art, life, and community could thrive. When someone offers up an opinion questioning the deal ownership has presented due to their perspective of only knowing OKC as a growing and thriving city that means MAPS worked. It means we’re taking the next steps as a city and becoming a metro approaching 1.5M people. It means we’re not Tulsa and offering $10k for people to move in and still trying to find a spark. Blending perspectives can result in some of the best outcomes for the entire community. In my perspective there is still an overwhelming base of people that knew OKC prior to the early 2000s, so that should carry us through this monumental pinnacle vote for what should become OKCs crown jewel. Don’t stress it.

[Tyson]

So there should be no further discussion until after the vote, then?

I'm all in for a continued discussion, I've enjoyed hearing everyone's input. People just need to be kind and respectful and if that's too hard then I would merely suggest for those members to step back and take a breather. No one is being persuaded by someone's opinion on here. We all want what's best for our city and people have different perspectives as to what that may be!

[scottk]

This may have been discussed somewhere already in the 2000+ posts in this thread, but, if the MAPS extension fails in the December vote, is there a contingency plan on the ownership or City, or is it essentially one and done?

Thunder organization plays out their lease and begins exploring other options in other cities (assuming the ownership would sell to another group in another city) or does the City and ownership go back to the drawing board for another proposal?

Without the Thunder, I feel like OKC looks a lot more like a Little Rock or Tulsa. There are quality civic and quality of life projects, but not nearly the same national stage that a professional team brings to the city.

[BoulderSooner]

This may have been discussed somewhere already in the 2000+ posts in this thread, but, if the MAPS extension fails in the December vote, is there a contingency plan on the ownership or City, or is it essentially one and done?

Thunder organization plays out their lease and begins exploring other options in other cities (assuming the ownership would sell to another group in another city) or does the City and ownership go back to the drawing board for another proposal?

Without the Thunder, I feel like OKC looks a lot more like a Little Rock or Tulsa. There are quality civic and quality of life projects, but not nearly the same national stage that a professional team brings to the city.

the thunder ownership will explore a sale of the team

[Mississippi Blues]

the thunder ownership will explore a sale of the team

Has that ever been confirmed or is it just the “do we really want to vote no and see if that will happen” attitude?

[Mississippi Blues]

Without the Thunder, I feel like OKC looks a lot more like a Little Rock or Tulsa. There are quality civic and quality of life projects, but not nearly the same national stage that a professional team brings to the city.

I think if we lost all of our momentum from them leaving we look like Birmingham, Albuquerque, or Tulsa at worst, undoubtedly still better than Little Rock, but realistically I think we’d be more comparable Omaha or Louisville. Ideally, we’d fall more into a “healthy growth” version of Austin, but it’s a little different since San Antonio is just down the road from them and they’re the capital of Texas, not Oklahoma.

[Laramie]

the thunder ownership will explore a sale of the team

Explore... The franchise will be sold in minutes and finalized in whatever the number of days it takes to
to commensurate the sale.

Then, depending on the city, say Seattle for example, this team will be gone for $1.8 billion and relocated
the next NBA season.

Don't expect OKC to get another franchise by expansion or relocation. OKC will have to stand in line. There
are over 18 MSA population centers ahead of OKC.

The new $900 million arena will insure longevity of the Oklahoma City Thunder, prediction 2050.

[April in the Plaza]

Explore... The franchise will be sold in minutes and finalized in whatever the number of days it takes to
to commensurate the sale.

Then, depending on the city, say Seattle for example, this team will be gone for $1.8 billion and relocated
the next NBA season.

Don't expect OKC to get another franchise by expansion or relocation. OKC will have to stand in line. There
are over 18 MSA population centers ahead of OKC.

The new $900 million arena will insure longevity of the Oklahoma City Thunder, prediction 2050.

Not Necessarily. It would look more like this: https://spectrumnews1.com/wi/milwauk...tadium-repairs

[Mississippi Blues]

Explore... The franchise will be sold in minutes and finalized in whatever the number of days it takes to
to commensurate the sale.

Then, depending on the city, say Seattle for example, this team will be gone for $1.8 billion and relocated
the next NBA season.

Don't expect OKC to get another franchise by expansion or relocation. OKC will have to stand in line. There
are over 18 MSA population centers ahead of OKC.

The new $900 million arena will insure longevity of the Oklahoma City Thunder, prediction 2050.

This is the kind of deceptive hysteria that not only ruins discussion on any topic, but is outright hostile to democracy and diplomacy of any sort. We all want the Thunder to get the arena they desire, but melodramatic statements embellished like this just ensures Oklahoma City, as Pete has said before, continues being a great city for a scam.

[soonerguru]

I can't believe people are arguing that a "no" vote won't be step one in losing the Thunder. Mind numbingly dumb.

I wish the owners would have ponied up more, but comparing OKC's situation with other cities is fraught with false equivalence.

For one, other cities don't actually own their arenas. OKC will be the owner of our arena. Will it be an albatross? There will be costs of maintenance and upkeep, but that's the cost of having an NBA and hopefully first-class arena.

Hopefully this arena will truly be something worthy of our investment, not only guaranteeing the Thunder remain in OKC but also offering a first-class venue for concerts and other events.

The cost of losing the Thunder, and the prestige that comes with it, would be great, and far greater than the investment the citizens will make to build a 21st Century arena. And, to be clear, we are overdue for a new arena. That we were able to make do with an $82 million arena (and the additional $250 million or so in improvements) for thirty years is remarkable. OKC has more than gotten its money's worth. That is a hell of a return on investment.

The arguments are getting circular in nature, and people seem to have made up their minds. If there were any doubt (probably not), I will be voting "yes." Respectfully disagree with those who will not but have trust the citizens of OKC will make the right call.

[Laramie]

^ ^ ^

Thank you Soonerguru, very well stated.

[soonerguru]

We are all stating our opinions.

Over, and over, and over again.

Some are making absurd arguments citing navel-gazing economic studies. How would those studies rate the investment we made in Scissortail Park?

Some folks are overthinking this.

The point is, we are not breaking any new ground here, just getting people testy.

[PoliSciGuy]

Some are making absurd arguments citing navel-gazing economic studies. How would those studies rate the investment we made in Scissortail Park?

Oh hey, speaking of arguments fraught with false equivalence....

And it's sad to see one side devolve to grandiose, unbacked claims about returns on investment or just straight up resorting to insults instead of bringing in data to back up their perspectives.

[Teo9969]

Regardless of the vote's outcome, I do think that the scrutiny in OKC is going to ratchet up. Especially if this passes, you can bet that there will be a push for the accounting surrounding the new arena to be more transparent than it has been. Hopefully some councilors will ask for the arena's economic performance to be presented with clearer accounting moving forward.

I also think that this could result in all future MAPS programs being altered from the perspective of willingness to wait moving forward for projects. If we can eat $300M interest on this project, I think stakeholders are going to start pushing for their projects to be funded with debt as well.

[HOT ROD]

interesting dicotomy going on here, both with weaknesses:

* side a: we'd better vote yes for the new arena regardless of the cost or consequences or else the Thunder will be done - Dec 13 with no other negotiations or revision of the deal.

* side b: I'd like to see the evidence that pro sports teams provide value to a city that is quantifiable.

BOTH of these arguments are circular and flawed.

Side A believes the threat of the team leaving is enough to vote yes to prevent that ever happening. While I agree to a point, there is no evidence that the team will sell or leave. Clay Bennett and the PBC has never come out with this. In fact, they've never said this is the ONLY and final deal either. Not saying it isn't or they wont leave, but there is no EVIDENCE that they will sell or intend to leave if the vote is NO.

Side B believes that pro sports do not benefit a city and that OKC would be where it is today even if the Thuder were not in OKC, since OKC's growth can't be quantified necessarily due to the Thunder. While I agree with this to a point, there is also no evidence that OKC would have grown if we didn't have the Thunder. This is a glass half empty argument that could never be resolved, since, OKC had a team for nearly 20 years (Hornets then Thunder) and in that time OKC has grown to 700K and 1.5 million metro area full of jobs in diverse sectors it didn't have in 2005. OKC also got two skyline changing skyscrapers in this period, including a supertall, and is set to get several more highrises that are approved.

Whether you attribute the growth of OKC to the Thunder or not, or whether we can see quantifiable profit made by having the team in OKC, it is very clear that 1) the growth we've seen in OKC happend WITH the Thunder, we did NOT see this level of growth prior to the arrival of major league team - therefore, an argument CAN be made that the professional sports team did have an impact to OKC's growth and perceived status/importance 2) OKC is mentioned daily among other major cities for something beyond tragedy, politically insensitive, or OU [which OKC isn't actually ever mentioned, Norman is and there was a time when Norman tried NOT to be associated with OKC] 3) OKC has large events that are wonderful, but NONE have the direct impact of 18,000+ for 41+ nights per year combined; even if you think it's shifting $ from what would be spent in OKC if the Thunder weren't here, evidence shows OKC's GDP was less without the Thunder so I highly doubt OKC would even have the venues, attractions, and events that it does now with an arena that has a major league team - speculation, I know, but I can also point to when OKC didn't have a team or arena.

Flip side, it is true that OKC often gets scammed, as was proven by Pete's investigation. Why city officials declined to have this transparent to the public is beyond me, but it also shows in my mind that the PBC and city are in-bed with each other. Therefore, I find it very difficult to believe that the PBC would all of sudden sell what is likely most of their owners' biggest equity position that they also likely use for recruiting to their companies let alone that they personally enjoy. Do you think they will instead go to Dallas to see a game or whatever city the Thunder would move to if they sold? I personally don't know if there is a plan to sell but I do know the owners have never made such a threat (unlike the Seattle ownership) and given the ownership is OKC based, I'd believe they'd work with OKC should the vote be No.

My position here is, we should vote YES for the arena since it is what we have in front of us and the arena with an NBA team has proven to improve OKC in tangable and intangable ways that nothing else OKC has done can match, as history has shown. However, I think it is fair for the city to account how the money will be spent and the team/chamber should come up with a campaign on what their intentions are. If both of these were to happen, I'm confident that the NO vote will be so small, it would just be those who always vote NO. If not, then there will be a significant amout of fiscal conservatives voting No who otherwise support the Thunder. Why would the CITY want to risk this?

[PhiAlpha]

This is the kind of deceptive hysteria that not only ruins discussion on any topic, but is outright hostile to democracy and diplomacy of any sort. We all want the Thunder to get the arena they desire, but melodramatic statements embellished like this just ensures Oklahoma City, as Pete has said before, continues being a great city for a scam.

Claiming that the thunder may relocate if the vote doesn’t pass isn’t melodramatic or deceptive. It’s fact. No one here knows if we will get another shot at it before the team is sold. Pete and others have said they don’t think it will immediately go that way but they don’t know that any better than anyone else here does. I tend to think it would be hard to believe that the owners will just throw their hands up and say screw it after all the work they did to bring the team here and the success we’ve had since, especially after only 3-5 months form announcement to vote, but that just isn’t a chance I’m willing to take.

[David]

The fact that we're going so fast from announcement to vote feels like the powers that be are trying to bamboozle the city into thinking this has to happen now now now or the Thunder leave and no time for questions or second guessing

[TheTravellers]

Has anybody actually asked the owners (both the group *and* the individual owners) what they'd do if the vote failed? I know they wouldn't be really forthcoming in their honest opinion, but if enough people/organizations ask them, and they replied with anything other than "no comment", you could probably tally up their answers and read *something* into it that might give a hint at what might happen.

[April in the Plaza]

Has anybody actually asked the owners (both the group *and* the individual owners) what they'd do if the vote failed? I know they wouldn't be really forthcoming in their honest opinion, but if enough people/organizations ask them, and they replied with anything other than "no comment", you could probably tally up their answers and read *something* into it that might give a hint at what might happen.

Media outlets have tried, but the owners are hiding behind Holt as they actively build 9-figure commercial developments on NW Expressway (The Oak) and Broadway Extension (The Half).

[PhiAlpha]

Media outlets have tried, but the owners are hiding behind Holt as they actively build 9-figure commercial developments on NW Expressway (The Oak) and Broadway Extension (The Half).

That’s a really weird comment to bring into the discussion. Aside from it having nothing to do with this at all, god forbid people who live here spending their money in a way that contributes to the development of the city. The horror.

[April in the Plaza]

That’s a really weird comment to bring into the discussion. Aside from it having nothing to do with this at all, god forbid people who live here spending their money in a way that contributes to the development of the city. The horror.

Not weird at all, if you actually view it within the context of Holt’s primary argument.

[SouthOKC]

Oh hey, speaking of arguments fraught with false equivalence....

And it's sad to see one side devolve to grandiose, unbacked claims about returns on investment or just straight up resorting to insults instead of bringing in data to back up their perspectives.

Would it help if I told you some of us are not concerned with the direct quantifiable revenue measured by specific set KPIs?

I’m just fine with this being a giant vanity project for the city and it keeping the Thunder. I’m just fine with paying a $.01 sales tax so that I can brag to business clients and bring them to a world class facility for games and meetups. I’m good if we never fully see the city paid back in the limited measurables from some study. You’re only interested in data and not hearing from the people living it…

[Teo9969]

I think it's also worth considering if certain city leaders don't just want the big project to be deep into construction by the time the Olympics come? On an international stage, having visuals of cranes building out a new arena would amplify the vision that the city is exploding.

[caaokc]

Yeah voting no has real “f*** around and find out” potential. I wish the ownership group was contributing more, but keeping the sales tax the same doesn’t bother me and I want the Thunder to stay. I feel like a lot of people feel this way, but I think the vote will be closer than expected.