New Downtown Arena

[chssooner]

According to Wikipedia, SMG pays the operating costs for BOK:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOK_Center

I would bet that it is very similar to how OKC's agreement with ASM (same as SMG) works. I doubt Tulsa got a way better deal than OKC. Tulsa pays ASM to operate the arena, just like OKC (see report you posted).

[Pete]

I would bet that it is very similar to how OKC's agreement with ASM (same as SMG) works. I doubt Tulsa got a way better deal than OKC. Tulsa pays ASM to operate the arena, just like OKC (see report you posted).

I just gave you the numbers for OKC, and that is absolutely not how our deal is structured.

Those came straight from the City, not something I guestimated.

[Laramie]

[BoulderSooner]

According to Wikipedia, SMG pays the operating costs for BOK:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOK_Center

in the 19 city of Tulsa budget they spent 14.5 mil on the BOK arena and Cox business center (they are a combined budget item)

the 20 plan was 14.77

https://www.cityoftulsa.org/media/83...ual-budget.pdf

[Anonymous.]

^

Just FYI, pro athletes in the U.S. have to pay income tax in every state they play in.

Exactly what I am saying. The income tax generation from having an NBA team is difficult to quantify. Then we have our own roster of dudes who can go out and buy Lamborghinis and Range Rovers for fun. Having ultra wealthy people spending money and paying taxes in your neck of the woods has to be taken into account.

[Pete]

Exactly what I am saying. The income tax generation from having an NBA team is difficult to quantify. Then we have our own roster of dudes who can go out and buy Lamborghinis and Range Rovers for fun. Having ultra wealthy people spending money and paying taxes in your neck of the woods has to be taken into account.

Many don't live here year-round and all spend half the season on the road.

And it's 15-20 people.


Of all the arguments for economic impact, this is truly insignificant.

[PoliSciGuy]

Yes, attendance data. The Thunder had the worst attendance in the league in 2023. It says right there $2.2MM estimate for sales on merch, food, and bevs. You don't think attendance and poor team performance affect those numbers? Just wait in 3 years, the Paycom will be selling out of seats and jerseys again because the team is about to be in KD/Russ Era of sales generation.

As for the rest of my points on tax generation. Take into account an entire NBA team and staff living and working in the state. Plus we receive all income taxes from visiting players and staff. In the next decades there will likely be several players making $1MM per game. Those visiting salaries for 41 games per season + any playoffs is massive.

This thread is a classic Freakonomics 101. The hidden side of everything. No one here is talking about the loss of millions in income tax from these huge salaries that are only going up.

And that golden era did not produce a surplus for the arena as big as 2022, as the data shows.

And it seems like your "promise" is predicated on assumptions and estimates without actual data to back it up. Studies that actually look at that data though point to a different finding - that the economic windfall from sports doesn't really materialize, as folks still spend money on recreation. This isn't Freakonomics, it's actual economics.

[Rover]

I deleted a bunch of political posts.

If you insist on interjecting "progressives" and "conservatives" and "libertarians" you are going to get banned.


We are attempting to have a discussion here, and politics need to be left out.

Sorry. Was just answering the previous post who blamed progressives. I assume they were warned, as well.

I meant to imply that there is a great section for which a fair discussion is meaningful and who don't vote based on hard set ideologies.

[chssooner]

And that golden era did not produce a surplus for the arena as big as 2022, as the data shows.

And it seems like your "promise" is predicated on assumptions and estimates without actual data to back it up. Studies that actually look at that data though point to a different finding - that the economic windfall from sports doesn't really materialize, as folks still spend money on recreation. This isn't Freakonomics, it's actual economics.

Man, I would hate to see how much Scissortail loses the city.

[Pete]

I meant to imply that there is a great section for which a fair discussion is meaningful and who don't vote based on hard set ideologies.

The undecided are the people who do research, try to separate hyperbole and fear from facts, and make an informed decision.

I honestly don't know how I'll vote and won't share my decision. But before Dec. 12th, I want to get as much factual info as possible instead of the completely one-sided deluge.


There are plenty of people who would vote for this regardless of terms. In fact, everyone here who has said they are completely for this measure falls into this category because they came to that decision long before much real information was out there. And of course, some will be against additional taxation of any kind, also regardless of terms.

[Anonymous.]

Many don't live here year-round and all spend half the season on the road.

And it's 15-20 people.


Of all the arguments for economic impact, this is truly insignificant.

So a $7MM operating loss on arena specific sales tax during a down-attendance year is a smoking gun, but OKC's own roster also being nearly $7MM in income tax generation is insignificant? And this does not take into account the visiting players and staff who have to pay income taxes here, but also stay at hotels, eat at restaurants, charter planes, etc.

Again, the value of a professional team being in this state is more valuable than $7MM without even trying to dig up data beyond the team's own collective salary.

[Pete]

So a $7MM operating loss on arena specific sales tax during a down-attendance year is a smoking gun, but OKC's own roster also being nearly $7MM in income tax generation is insignificant? And this does not take into account the visiting players and staff who have to pay income taxes here, but also stay at hotels, eat at restaurants, charter planes, etc.

Again, the value of a professional team being in this state is more valuable than $7MM without even trying to dig up data beyond the team's own collective salary.

Nobody is arguing there isn't an economic impact; there is literally no way to accurately compute that.

And nobody is arguing that the City should go tell the Thunder to leave.


We are trying to get at exactly what we will be voting for in December and how that compares to other NBA cities.

[PoliSciGuy]

So a $7MM operating loss on arena specific sales tax during a down-attendance year is a smoking gun, but OKC's own roster also being nearly $7MM in income tax generation is insignificant? And this does not take into account the visiting players and staff who have to pay income taxes here, but also stay at hotels, eat at restaurants, charter planes, etc.

Again, the value of a professional team being in this state is more valuable than $7MM without even trying to dig up data beyond the team's own collective salary.

The original context of the arena data was that folks were saying that the arena generates profit for the city, so a Milwaukee- or Sacramento-style deal wouldn't work because the city is giving up potential profits to private arena ownership. Pete's data shows that this claim doesn't hold up, as owning the arena itself does not actually generate a profit for the city, but actually constitutes a loss.

As for larger, more macro-economic concerns, those are arguments we've been hosting back and forth for months (and the data does show that those incomes from players visiting and staying don't come close to offsetting the initial public money outlays).

[Rover]

The undecided are the people who do research, try to separate hyperbole and fear from facts, and make an informed decision.

I honestly don't know how I'll vote and won't share my decision. But before Dec. 12th, I want to get as much factual info as possible instead of the completely one-sided deluge.


There are plenty of people who would vote for this regardless of terms. In fact, everyone here who has said they are completely for this measure falls into this category because they came to that decision long before much real information was out there. And of course, some will be against additional taxation of any kind, also regardless of terms.

Very much agree.

While it is anectdotal, I do think there is value to the impression the outside world, business, tourists, et al, when the city has world class facilities to promote and a sports team that competes at the highest level in the world. The people I do business with around the country, and even those overseas, have an improved awareness of and appreciation for OKC and it's community partners because of the visibility of the Thunder. It is something that no amount of self serving advertising would generate. How to price tag that... I don't think you can accurately quantify, but I believe it is real. Would that go away if we lose the Thunder? Not entirely, but it would be damaged. WILL we lose the Thunder if we don't build this? Who knows. But there is a risk and it needs to be part of the calculus.

[fortpatches]

Exactly what I am saying. The income tax generation from having an NBA team is difficult to quantify. Then we have our own roster of dudes who can go out and buy Lamborghinis and Range Rovers for fun. Having ultra wealthy people spending money and paying taxes in your neck of the woods has to be taken into account.

Not to be too pedantic, but most of the players would currently be High-Net-Worth Individuals with two that barely make that cut. There are only two players that have an estimated wealth putting them in the Ultra-high-net worth individuals category. There are two players that will likely reach that category once their contracts are fulfilled (one in two years, one in three years) and one that may just eke it out in four years. There is a fourth player that may reach that category if their contract is extended after 24/25 season.

Currently, the estimated total net worth for the Thunder team is around $185MM.

[David]

Man, I would hate to see how much Scissortail loses the city.

I would actually love to see that data considering how much free use the park gets by OKC citizens day in and day out. That would be a far different discussion than a facility like the arena you effectively can never use unless you are a paying customer.

[Pete]

Man, I would hate to see how much Scissortail loses the city.

It actually comes before City Council every year to be approved. Last year it was $3.6 million. And 99.9% of what goes on there is completely free to the public. That park is packed almost every day with people enjoying what it has to offer.


The better question is why the subsidies for Scissortail and the Myriad Gardens ($2.7 million/year) are very public and require approval by City Council and the Economic Development Trust, yet this much bigger subsidy for Paycom is never reported anywhere, let alone subjected to a vote.

[April in the Plaza]

FAFO (you know what that stands for) - OKC is trying to find out just how easily a team can sell, and Louisville or KC or Seattle is going to crush any momentum OKC has.

Way to go, Daily Oklahoman. 1 chance it all we will get. Can't replace the Thunder, and we will be screwed going forward.

This argument gets thrown around a lot, but I’m not sure it has any basis in reality. The NBA hates team relocations more than just about anything (outside of the nbapa). Relocations tend to hurt league wide revenue as they can destroy rivalries, undermine fan interest and cause financial harm to the league on the whole.

So, in the event that this deal doesn’t pass on December 12th, it’s just as likely the NBA will tell the PCB to suck it up, get back to the negotiating table, and reach a deal that is equitable for all stakeholders.

[Jake]

It actually comes before City Council every year to be approved. Last year it was $3.6 million. And 99.9% of what goes on there is completely free to the public. That park is packed almost every day with people enjoying what it has to offer.

Scissortail also didn’t cost 850 million dollars.

[BoulderSooner]

So, in the event that this deal doesn’t pass on December 12th, it’s just as likely the NBA will tell the PCB to suck it up, get back to the negotiating table, and reach a deal that is equitable for all stakeholders.

based on what?

[Laramie]

Forbes: The Business Of Basketball

#24 Oklahoma City Thunder $1.875 B

Full list: https://www.forbes.com/nba-valuations/list/#tabverall

Note: Market size, how it co-relates to team valuations.

[BoulderSooner]

yet this much bigger subsidy for Paycom is never reported anywhere, let alone subjected to a vote.

the first part is a legitimate ? but as to the second part it has to be somewhere in the city council voted on budget right?

[Pete]

Scissortail also didn’t cost 850 million dollars.

I'd wager that the total cost for the new arena will be in excess of $1.5 billion once you factor in interest expense, land value and final construction costs.

[Pete]

the first part is a legitimate ? but as to the second part it has to be somewhere in the city council voted on budget right?

Yes, but buried in a nearly $1 billion annual budget in such a way that no one -- including City Council -- would know even the approximate number... Or for that matter, even know that there was a subsidy at all.

I was told they in fact did not know until Freeman provided the report I posted, which was only about a month ago and long after the FY 23-24 budget was approved.


And BTW, even though the Scissortail and Myriad Gardens budgets are also included in the overall budget, the subsidies are still clearly identified and voted upon by two separate City committees. Why not Paycom?

[Laramie]

My prediction:

If this passes Pete, we know you will get us the facts and the information on what transpired.

$900 million is one hell of an investment. Let's hope the city only have to use $750 million coupled with city-owned land to give us a new arena valued at $1 billion.

$750 million - new arena construction
$ 70 million MAPS 4 for Paycom Center put on pause.
$ 50 million ownership group
$870 million

$150 million - Land value: Prairie Surf Media Studios
$1,020 billion
- $50 million demolition - PSM site.
$ 970 million
$ 25 million reinforce foundation and rebuild underground parking
$ 995 million
$ 10 million - Overhead
$1,005 billion Grand Total estimated.