New Downtown Arena

[BoulderSooner]

I've said all the way along the total budget for this arena is going to be a lot closer to $1.5B than $1B.

I think this very likely

[Pete]

Any surplus revenues ultimately collected from the temporary
sales tax that come in above project costs and any related financing costs will be utilized
either to complete the New Arena and/or placed in a capital improvement fund for
future capital maintenance of and improvements to the New Arena

CAPITAL maintenance, not regular maintenance.

The difference between capital and operational costs is that the former is considered value-added, which in turn can be depreciated. I would think this would include things like a new scoreboard, not just fixing an existing one.

The City already pays all the operational expenses, including utilities (if the new arena deal is to be similar to Paycom). We also pay for all the capital improvements.

[BoulderSooner]

CAPITAL maintenance,.

capital maintenance very much can replace ac units ... fix large scale broken windows and things like that



also just now watching the meeting .. and some of the council comments from the Ward 6 and Ward 7 council members are just baffling ..

they clearly do no preparation and very little research before meetings .. I am not sure how you can be on the council and not understand that the resolution of Maps 4 projects is not binding in any way shape or form.

the comment that "I can't even afford to go to a game" is just an inflammatory lie .. that is wild .. and just out of touch with reality ...

[Pete]

capital maintenance very much can replace ac units ... fix large scale broken windows and things like that

I'm not going to get into an argument about this because you and I both know the intent of that clause is that anything above and beyond the presently budgeted sales tax will be dedicated to enhancements or improvements for the arena, especially since the City is already required to handle all the maintenance.

[SouthOKC]

^

Also note the wording explicitly says, "This budget amount for the New Arena does not include the additional value of any publicly-owned land that may ultimately be utilized as the site for the New Arena."

As I mentioned previously, if the Cox Site is chosen they will not be factoring in the value of that land into the budget.

Remember, way back in 2015 Bob Howard & Co. were asking $100MM for their land west of Paycom. When the City initiated eminent domain believing this number to be outrageous, they quickly dropped their lawsuit when it became clear that the independent commissioners appointed by the court were going to end up determining a land value much closer to that number than the City was prepared to pay. If you wait until the formal appraisal comes in with eminent domain, then the value is binding.

Long way of saying the value of the land is not insignificant, especially by the time this project kicks off.

I've said all the way along the total budget for this arena is going to be a lot closer to $1.5B than $1B.

That price tag should give OKC a world class arena and something truly unique. It’s especially true considering the Prairie Surf location would cost an outside developer $100M+ potentially.

This is why it would be comforting to fully understand what the Thunder have already planned prior to the vote in December. Worst case scenario we end up with a bigger Paycom building.

Personally, I would love to see large indoor public access areas opened year round that incorporate retail, restaurants, etc…I know it’s very unlikely but how cool would it be if the aquarium was part of this development.

[PhiAlpha]

These takes are hilarious to me. That OKC is such a poor, pitiful, pathetic place if not for the Thunder. Good thing random dudes around the country see our name on ESPN though, it’s propelled OKC forward in immeasurable ways!

Im not sure if you’re just an old or something but as far as getting younger people to move here and/or stay here…exposure that the thunder gives us does matter when it comes to making OKC appear more desirable to those that have never been here or lived here.

like it or not, the Thunder are one of the few positive things that truly put OKC on the map and make it relevant for most of the country. Discounting the positive effect they have on OKC’s national image is naive at best.

[PhiAlpha]

capital maintenance very much can replace ac units ... fix large scale broken windows and things like that



also just now watching the meeting .. and some of the council comments from the Ward 6 and Ward 7 council members are just baffling ..

they clearly do no preparation and very little research before meetings .. I am not sure how you can be on the council and not understand that the resolution of Maps 4 projects is not binding in any way shape or form.

the comment that "I can't even afford to go to a game" is just an inflammatory lie .. that is wild .. and just out of touch with reality ...

LOL, yeah I find it hard to believe that anyone on the city council couldn’t afford a few $10 loud city tickets on stubhub and the cost of gas to drive to a free parking spot downtown (they exist if you don’t want to pay and/or aren’t lazy)

[GoOKC1991]

Yeah, I’m seeing “I can’t afford to go to a game” all over the place. As well as comments like “Only tax the arena if it’s free admission to residents”. People are just absolutely clueless or simply choosing to be ignorant on purpose.

[PoliSciGuy]

Those are valid criticisms. Folks absolutely have a right to have issue with their taxpayer money going to support an organization that will price them out of enjoying the facility their tax dollars paid for. Not agreeing with the “make it free” point, but the general sentiment isn’t ignorant.

[April in the Plaza]

Oh, Rosentraub? Yeah he used case studies of projects he was a consultant on, such as Petco Park in San Diego, and shockingly found that those projects produced economic growth for the region (though even his studies find that the stadium itself is an economic loser). However he doesn't really tease out correlation/causation, a similar mistake that Mayor Holt makes when he points to the population growth that OKC experienced after the Thunder moved here. There are countless other confounding explanations that aren't controlled for.

Saw this mentioned on social media: https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/...cim4qzc55XJl-g

Pretty cringe, tbh.

[PoliSciGuy]

And it turns out the Sonics were right. Seattle’s economy didn’t tank, it pretty much shrugged off the Sonics’ departure. Folks just spent their recreation dollars elsewhere.

[April in the Plaza]

And it turns out the Sonics were right. Seattle’s economy didn’t tank, it pretty much shrugged off the Sonics’ departure. Folks just spent their recreation dollars elsewhere.

These owners just strike me as a rather disgusting group of people. I can’t vote yes on this deal. And I don’t see myself ever voluntarily paying for tickets. If a friend offers, sure. But I’m not going out of my way to support these people, even if the team is contending.

[GoOKC1991]

Those are valid criticisms. Folks absolutely have a right to have issue with their taxpayer money going to support an organization that will price them out of enjoying the facility their tax dollars paid for. Not agreeing with the “make it free” point, but the general sentiment isn’t ignorant.

Unless it’s a marquee opponent, tickets are very reasonably priced actually. Especially if you wait until the day of the game and buy through the resale market.

[chssooner]

And it turns out the Sonics were right. Seattle’s economy didn’t tank, it pretty much shrugged off the Sonics’ departure. Folks just spent their recreation dollars elsewhere.

You are really comparing a city with almost double the MSA of OKC, with OKC? Seattle, with 2 other pro sports teams (now 3) vs. OKC, a city who will never get another one with the piss-poor arena we have now?

That is a new low for you, and proves you don't get it.

[GoOKC1991]

And it turns out the Sonics were right. Seattle’s economy didn’t tank, it pretty much shrugged off the Sonics’ departure. Folks just spent their recreation dollars elsewhere.

Seattle has the Mariners, the Seahawks, the Sounders and the Kraken now. It’s also a major tourist city.

[GoOKC1991]

These owners just strike me as a rather disgusting group of people. I can’t vote yes on this deal. And I don’t see myself ever voluntarily paying for tickets. If a friend offers, sure. But I’m not going out of my way to support these people, even if the team is contending.

Well I can tell you, they sure do run a first class organization. I am a season ticket holder and the Thunder have gone above and beyond anytime I have had an issue. Even if they weren’t chipping in any money at all, I would still be voting yes.

It’s more than just the arena and the basketball played on the court to me.

[PoliSciGuy]

Unless it’s a marquee opponent, tickets are very reasonably priced actually. Especially if you wait until the day of the game and buy through the resale market.

With 200,000 people in the city living below the poverty line and an increasing percentage of Oklahomans living paycheck to paycheck, even “reasonably priced” is out of reach for a large number of folks who are paying for this arena.

[PoliSciGuy]

You are really comparing a city with almost double the MSA of OKC, with OKC? Seattle, with 2 other pro sports teams (now 3) vs. OKC, a city who will never get another one with the piss-poor arena we have now?

That is a new low for you, and proves you don't get it.

Maybe read a bit better. I was merely addressing the claim in the article that I quoted, which didn’t mention OKC, nor did my response. Don’t be so quick to clutch pearls or collapse on your fainting couch.

[chssooner]

Maybe read a bit better. I was merely addressing the claim in the article that I quoted, which didn’t mention OKC, nor did my response. Don’t be so quick to clutch pearls or collapse on your fainting couch.

But you are saying that cities can very quickly recover from losing a pro franchise. Sure, a city like Seattle can. But OKC is not anywhere near Seattle's level, in terms of business, tourism, and basically anything. But there is also nothing that MAPS could do to get us anywhere close to that level.

But losing the Thunder will basically remove the only level up we have over cities like Omaha, Louisville, Birmingham, Des Moines, Hartford, etc. That is who OKC is a peer with, not Seattle,

Look at Las Vegas. They had no need for pro sports franchises, yet they actively sought teams looking to move, and also a new NHL franchise. Because Vegas realizes the benefits of pro sports (and Nevada gave the Raiders almost $1 billion to do so).

Again, we are arguing in circles. There is nothing that anyone on here can say that will make you admit pro franchises and a sparkling new arena are worth it, when we already have a serviceable, adequate, lower-tier arena with a roof that protects rom rain. It will benefit more than just the Thunder. Sure, they may benefit a lot, but not in terms of selling the team. The arena won't travel, and prospective buyers won't give a damn about an arena, because they will be moving the team to another city.

You are voting no on this, we get it.

[SouthOKC]

With 200,000 people in the city living below the poverty line and an increasing percentage of Oklahomans living paycheck to paycheck, even “reasonably priced” is out of reach for a large number of folks who are paying for this arena.

Those 200,000 people have every right to show up and vote this down. Which isn’t going to happen. Are you better positioned to tell them how to spend their money than they are?

[PhiAlpha]

These owners just strike me as a rather disgusting group of people. I can’t vote yes on this deal. And I don’t see myself ever voluntarily paying for tickets. If a friend offers, sure. But I’m not going out of my way to support these people, even if the team is contending.

How long have you lived in OKC?

[PhiAlpha]

You are really comparing a city with almost double the MSA of OKC, with OKC? Seattle, with 2 other pro sports teams (now 3) vs. OKC, a city who will never get another one with the piss-poor arena we have now?

That is a new low for you, and proves you don't get it.

its not a new low...he's been doing it for a year. #FakeThunderFan

[PhiAlpha]

With 200,000 people in the city living below the poverty line and an increasing percentage of Oklahomans living paycheck to paycheck, even “reasonably priced” is out of reach for a large number of folks who are paying for this arena.

What do people living at poverty level pay in property and/or income tax (assuming they have an income)?

What relief do they receive for sales tax? Are they charged sales tax for items bought through SNAP and similar programs? In addition to SNAP, what other programs are available to help those at poverty level? If they moved out of Oklahoma City, would their sales tax be higher or lower than what they pay in OKC (and would continue to pay if this is passed)?

Point being...I don't think the 200,000 people you reference are paying much if anything for this and would most likely be paying more in sales tax if they theoretically moved out of OKC to avoid it. I'd also argue that much more has been done that positively affected them with the tax dollars they have paid to OKC over the last 30 years than would've been done if they'd lived in the suburbs.

[PhiAlpha]

Maybe read a bit better. I was merely addressing the claim in the article that I quoted, which didn’t mention OKC, nor did my response. Don’t be so quick to clutch pearls or collapse on your fainting couch.

Dude. Come on. That's incredibly disingenuous.

[Mississippi Blues]

This thread has been as enlightening as listening to frogs croak all night long.