Stadium District (formerly Producers Coop)

[Ryan]

Why are the former owners not liable for clean up?

This is Oklahoma. Just say”job killing regulations” and you can get away with a lot.

[Jersey Boss]

hundreds of millions

What are you basing this on and are you baseing this opinion on the land being rid of contaniments?

[Jersey Boss]

This is Oklahoma. Just say”job killing regulations” and you can get away with a lot.

What jobs, the land is vacant. If anything clean up provides jobs. Where is the leadership at City Hall? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Jersey Boss]

That's nuts. I guess it would just be better to pay asking price @ $65M then if the city were to buy it.

I would like to know if the price tag reflects the cost of remediation. If not, why not? I can't believe the condition of the land is not factored in to the valuation.

[chssooner]

Someone can value something at whatever they want. No one is paying, so they must not care too much.

[mugofbeer]

I couldn’t disagree more. I’ve been to a few of those cities and they are absolutely not anywhere near as dead as OKC is at night.

Using Denver as an example (downtown active entertainment zone,s are now experiencing some sort of violence nearly every weekend - including this past weekend), having throngs of partygoer's streaming around downtown isn't always a good thing when someone always feels the need to shoot at someone else.

[Ryan]

[QUOTE=Jersey Boss;1244429]What jobs, the land is vacant. If anything clean up provides jobs. Where is the leadership at City Hall? Inquiring minds want to know.[/QUOTE
I’m not following you? The jobs that were there when the contamination occured. Environment clean up means regulations and clean up costs

[Ryan]

[QUOTE=Jersey Boss;1244429]What jobs, the land is vacant. If anything clean up provides jobs. Where is the leadership at City Hall? Inquiring minds want to know.[/QUOTE
I’m not following you? The jobs that were there when the contamination occured. Environment clean up means regulations and clean up costs

[Ryan]

Agreed., people can have whatever take they want. Mine is that nobody and I mean nobody is going to touch that property until it’s remediated.

[yukong]

I would like to know if the price tag reflects the cost of remediation. If not, why not? I can't believe the condition of the land is not factored in to the valuation.

It does not. The cost of cleanup is currently unknown because full environmental assessments have not been performed. That is the main reason it has not sold. The costs for cleanup are unknown, thus no one will buy it for the inflated price. At least three different developers were close to buying it. I was in meetings with two. Those developers had fairly detailed plans for their developments but eventually walked away because of the uncertainty of cleanup costs and the apparent unwillingness of the owners to account for such in the purchase price. Those cleanup costs are why the city would never take it via imminent domain. Because the city would then be on the hook. It should be remembered that this whole area was once part of the turn of the century OKC oil fields. There was also a refinery there if I remember correctly. Then decades of industrial use. The amount of contamination could be very high, but no one knows. Most developers want a mix of commercial and residential to make their projects work. A residential component makes the cleanup way more expensive as the maximum contamination levels come way down if folks are living there. The owner also appears to be unwilling to clean it up because they too fear the price tag. Until the owner cleans it up, or reduces the price to account for the possible contamination, it will just sit like it is.

[Pete]

^

Yukong knows!

As he said, the unknown cleanup is a huge hindrance but then you throw in a much higher cost to make it suitable for any residential component and you basically have land that has been sitting for a decade and looks like it will continue to do so through what is shaping up to be the biggest building boom in OKC history.

Retail and office are really struggling right now and may continue to do so. Hotels may be an option but that sector looks well-served with more planned. That leaves residential which has continued to do well, but if you can't build apartments or condos without knowing the exact cost to get the property livable, there doesn't seem to be a way forward.

And because of the ownership nature -- a bunch of owners in one co-op -- nobody seems very motivated.

[G.Walker]

Does the site not qualify for an EPA Brownfield Cleanup Grant?

[jdross1982]

Does the site not qualify for an EPA Brownfield Cleanup Grant?

Would think it would qualify for the EPA grant but then also would think the state and Fed govts would be able to assist with it as well. Having it sit does nothing for the city and with how close the property is to the river you have to wonder if there are additional impact concerns with the contamination reaching the water table.

[Ryan]

This site reminds me of the 1990 compact Toyota pick up with the four banger on Facebook marketplace. The owner still thinks they’ll get $22,500 for it even with a rod knocking

[yukong]

Does the site not qualify for an EPA Brownfield Cleanup Grant?

No it does not. Grants only go to governmental or quasi-governmental entities. Grants are not allowed for privately owned property. Now, if the City or State has Brownfields revolving loan funds, the owners could apply for a low interest loan. However those funds are limited and likely not even in the ballpark of the amounts needed to remediate the site.

[yukong]

^

Hotels may be an option but that sector looks well-served with more planned. That leaves residential which has continued to do well, but if you can't build apartments or condos without knowing the exact cost to get the property livable, there doesn't seem to be a way forward.

Pete is correct...to make this site profitable, it will likely have to have a residential component. That will make cleanup magnitudes higher in cost. Even after cleanup, any residential construction will likely have to be equipped with vapor intrusion bypass equipment, which can be very costly. Also, even a hotel component will be difficult as those too will likely require cleanup to residential levels. The break between Commercial and Residential cleanup levels is basically answered by the question..."will there be persons present who are in a structure for more than 24 hours at a time. Also, if any development involves daycares or a school, the cleanup will have to be to residential levels. Now, if a development has multiple components, residential, hotel, commercial, etc...only the actual parcels where the residential, hotels, etc are situated have to be to residential levels, so a developer could have residential in one section of the whole site, and avoid the massive costs of residential over the whole site, but that can still be problematic. A big question is what is the condition of the groundwater below the site. There could be a large area of groundwater. How contaminated it is? It is pretty much unknown because I do not believe a phase I or phase II site assessments have been done.

[Pete]

Flashback to 2017 when demolition was starting:

[Jersey Boss]

It does not. The cost of cleanup is currently unknown because full environmental assessments have not been performed. That is the main reason it has not sold. The costs for cleanup are unknown, thus no one will buy it for the inflated price. At least three different developers were close to buying it. I was in meetings with two. Those developers had fairly detailed plans for their developments but eventually walked away because of the uncertainty of cleanup costs and the apparent unwillingness of the owners to account for such in the purchase price. Those cleanup costs are why the city would never take it via imminent domain. Because the city would then be on the hook. It should be remembered that this whole area was once part of the turn of the century OKC oil fields. There was also a refinery there if I remember correctly. Then decades of industrial use. The amount of contamination could be very high, but no one knows. Most developers want a mix of commercial and residential to make their projects work. A residential component makes the cleanup way more expensive as the maximum contamination levels come way down if folks are living there. The owner also appears to be unwilling to clean it up because they too fear the price tag. Until the owner cleans it up, or reduces the price to account for the possible contamination, it will just sit like it is.

Thanks for such a well written post that clears up many "how come..." questions about valuation and viability.

[Pete]

Yukong is the man.

[Ryan]

No it does not. Grants only go to governmental or quasi-governmental entities. Grants are not allowed for privately owned property. Now, if the City or State has Brownfields revolving loan funds, the owners could apply for a low interest loan. However those funds are limited and likely not even in the ballpark of the amounts needed to remediate the site.

So not even OERB?

[citywokchinesefood]

So, this property is basically hopeless unless the city or state somehow acquire it through a land swap or something similar. Thats what is seems as a total layman.

[therhett17]

I still don't understand why the contamination is only seems to be a problem IF someone wants to buy and use the land... if the contamination is already there and causing problems it should be cleaned up now, regardless of sale or future use.

[CaptDave]

I still don't understand why the contamination is only seems to be a problem IF someone wants to buy and use the land... if the contamination is already there and causing problems it should be cleaned up now, regardless of sale or future use.

Agree 1000% - why not make the polluter responsible for cleaning up their mess?

[jedicurt]

Agree 1000% - why not make the polluter responsible for cleaning up their mess?

i'm assuming it would be they were grandfathered in? or given and exemption. and thus it's on the next owner.

[citywokchinesefood]

Agree 1000% - why not make the polluter responsible for cleaning up their mess?

The American way is to privatize profits and socialize costs. We very rarely hold corporate polluters to task, more often than not they get to write their own rules.