New Downtown Arena

[BoulderSooner]

The city also should be dangling the deal in front of the state given that the Thunder is generating at least $30M+ annually for the state. $150M would be a fair ask from the state.

i agree with this ..


and you keep bring up the team leaving with a 25 year lease in place .... that has never happened ANY WHERE >>

[PhiAlpha]

i agree with this ..


and you keep bring up the team leaving with a 25 year lease in place .... that has never happened ANY WHERE >>

Yeah based on precedent, it would be in the last 2-5 years of the lease and it would be a lease on a building that will still be newer than Paycom is right now. Unless they just completely suck for the 10-15 years leading up to that or OKC goes into a depression and corporate sponsorships evaporate…then I think leaving before the end of the lease, especially after the city builds what will likely be one of the nicest arenas in the country when it opens, seems highly unlikely at best.

Find a situation where a city built one of, if not the most, expensive arenas in the league with a large public funding element from the ground up and the team broke its initial lease on it to relocate.

[Shortsyeararound]

Please don't try to speak for me, thanks. If ownership pitched in at levels similar to other NBA teams I'd be much more amenable to this.

I think anyone that has read your countless posts would agree with what chssooner said and if not then here is the question- Are you (PoliSciGuy) in support of the city paying for an arena?

[Jake]

football stadiums used 16-20 times a year vs arenas used 150 times a year are not comparable ..

I agree. It’ll be easier to make a more equal comparison once I see the full terms of the lease. Then I can make an informed decision before I’m expected to vote.


Wait.

[PoliSciGuy]

I think anyone that has read your countless posts would agree with what chssooner said and if not then here is the question- Are you (PoliSciGuy) in support of the city paying for an arena?

Earlier in this thread I said even 25% would lower my grumbling and that 40% would make me eat crow. I'm all for the city paying for an arena at levels similar to other NBA cities and commend Holt for looking for a longer term solution. I'd also want to see a lot more transparency.

[PhiAlpha]

I think anyone that has read your countless posts would agree with what chssooner said and if not then here is the question- Are you (PoliSciGuy) in support of the city paying for an arena?

I’ll give him a little credit…he has said he’d be more likely to vote yes if the owners were paying substantially more. Though my personal feeling based on his posts is that he wouldn’t vote on an arena if the only cost to the city was donating the land (sarcasm…kind of lol)

#WWPSGD?

[BoulderSooner]

I agree. It’ll be easier to make a more equal comparison once I see the full terms of the lease. Then I can make an informed decision before I’m expected to vote.


Wait.

the mayor has now said publicly that the lease will be the same as the current lease just longer

[Shortsyeararound]

Earlier in this thread I said even 25% would lower my grumbling and that 40% would make me eat crow. I'm all for the city paying for an arena at levels similar to other NBA cities and commend Holt for looking for a longer term solution. I'd also want to see a lot more transparency.

Instead of a yes or no, it is a yes with caveats, which I understand. Now it has been mentioned that you reside in Edmond and can't even vote on this, so it is safe to assume that your role in this thread is to play the devils advocate. Would that be a fair assumption?

[Pete]

Instead of a yes or no, it is a yes with caveats, which I understand. Now it has been mentioned that you reside in Edmond and can't even vote on this, so it is safe to assume that your role in this thread is to play the devils advocate. Would that be a fair assumption?

Almost everyone in the OKC area -- and a lot of the state -- will be paying for this through sales tax. Tons of people in Edmond spend within the OKC limits.

In fact, you could easily argue this is unfair to them because they will be paying for it but unable to vote.

[Laramie]

Instead of a yes or no, it is a yes with caveats, which I understand. Now it has been mentioned that you reside in Edmond and can't even vote on this, so it is safe to assume that your role in this thread is to play the devils advocate. Would that be a fair assumption?

He can't vote on this issue. He has bombards the thread with his take. Why is he so vocal about the development.

PoliSciGuy may we hear from you.

[OkieinGeorgia]

I agree 100% with Gabe Ikard who says that the Thunder are working exclusively with OKC on this deal right now, but if it doesn't pass it doesn't mean they automatically leave but they will entertain all offers and even if OKC does get a deal together to keep the team it could very likely be worse than the deal they are working on this first run. Better or worse, I think this is where it's at. OKC just needs to pass this thing and get it secured. The only thing dumber than what Seattle let happen would be for OKC to pinch pennies (literal pennies) and have the exact same thing happen.

Just like in life, don't be cheap, and it's even worth paying a bit of a premium for the things that are especially important. The Thunder are especially important to OKC.

[PhiAlpha]

Almost everyone in the OKC area -- and a lot of the state -- will be paying for this through sales tax. Tons of people in Edmond spend within the OKC limits.

In fact, you could easily argue this is unfair to them because they will be paying for it but unable to vote.

You could argue that, but if they are that fundamentally opposed to it, they could also completely avoid it by choosing not to shop in OKC and stick to buying goods within the boundaries of their own city or others. Would be difficult if those idividuals like doing things in the city or work there but no one is forcing them to spend there.

Of course that fails to recognize that OKC’s sales tax is the same or lower than that of several suburbs and will not change due to the approval of this proposal.

[BDP]

the mayor has now said publicly that the lease will be the same as the current lease just longer

Do you have a link for this?

Honestly, from a political standpoint, I think the mayor stepped in it when he initially used the term "significant contribution" from team ownership without quantifying that. At that point, everyone paying attention to it imagined an amount that meets their idea of significant.

[Pete]

You could, but if they are that fundamentally opposed to it, they could also completely avoid it by choosing not to shop in OKC and stick to buying goods within the boundaries of their own city or others. Would be difficult if those idividuals like doing things in the city or work there but no one is forcing them to spend there. Of course that fails to recognize that OKC’s sales tax is the same or lower than that of several suburbs.

The reason OKC sales tax is similar is that it is kept artificially low to accommodate 40 years of 'temporary' $.01 extra tax.

This is not a small point because it greatly reduces the revenue the City needs for police, fire and everything else.


And BTW, if you are going to take up this point it should also be mentioned you live in Tulsa. Shouldn't that disqualify your opinion as well? BoulderSooner also lives in Edmond and I suspect many of the people on your side of this issue do not live in the OKC city limits either... See how that works?

[PhiAlpha]

Do you have a link for this?

Honestly, from a political standpoint, I think the mayor stepped in it when he initially used the term "significant contribution" from team ownership without quantifying that. At that point, everyone paying attention to it imagined an amount that meets their idea of significant.

yeah using subjective phrasing like that probably want great. Of course he also could’ve thought they were contributing more at the time based on the state of negotiations .

[Pete]

yeah using subjective phrasing like that probably want great. Of course he also could’ve thought they were contributing more at the time based on the state of negotiations .

So, he negotiated way down in private? Or did he deliberately mislead?

[Rover]

Please don't try to speak for me, thanks. If ownership pitched in at levels similar to other NBA teams I'd be much more amenable to this.

I assume you realize that the team revenues in OKC are near the bottom in the NBA because of the city size and economic demographics, as well as the lack of Fortune 500 and other large companies based here. You guys love to compare to Milwaukee, probably the closest to OKC in size that has recently built a new arena, and their revenue is about $75 million a year more than OKC.

Other owners contribute more because they expect more suites and other revenue generating ameneties that won't go for as much money in OKC and you can't sell as many of them. Heck, in OKC we struggle to pay for the beers, let alone suites.

[Shortsyeararound]

Almost everyone in the OKC area -- and a lot of the state -- will be paying for this through sales tax. Tons of people in Edmond spend within the OKC limits.

In fact, you could easily argue this is unfair to them because they will be paying for it but unable to vote.

Same could be said for cities/states that Oklahoman's visit and vice versa. Everybody's paying for something they don't get to use.

[Pete]

I assume you realize that the team revenues in OKC are near the bottom in the NBA because of the city size and economic demographics, as well as the lack of Fortune 500 and other large companies based here. You guys love to compare to Milwaukee, probably the closest to OKC in size that has recently built a new arena, and their revenue is about $75 million a year more than OKC.

They also recently won an NBA championship.

[PhiAlpha]

The reason OKC sales tax is similar is that it is kept artificially low to accommodate 40 years of 'temporary' $.01 extra tax.

This is not a small point because it greatly reduces the revenue the City needs for police, fire and everything else.


And BTW, if you are going to take up this point it should also be mentioned you live in Tulsa. Shouldn't that disqualify your opinion as well? BoulderSooner also lives in Edmond and I suspect many of the people on your side of this issue do not live in the OKC city limits either... See how that works?

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.p...64#post1243864

And before anyone who’s read or actually happens to remember any thing from my posts over the last few years says anything, I’m moving back to OKC from Tulsa this fall and will be registered to vote on this lol.

See how that works?

[Pete]

^

The point being that it's absurd to try and dismiss someone's opinion based on whether they live within the OKC city limits or not.

[Shortsyeararound]

The reason OKC sales tax is similar is that it is kept artificially low to accommodate 40 years of 'temporary' $.01 extra tax.

This is not a small point because it greatly reduces the revenue the City needs for police, fire and everything else.


And BTW, if you are going to take up this point it should also be mentioned you live in Tulsa. Shouldn't that disqualify your opinion as well? BoulderSooner also lives in Edmond and I suspect many of the people on your side of this issue do not live in the OKC city limits either... See how that works?

I understand that as well.
For the record I live next to Lake Hefner and have voted for 30 years on city/state/national ballots.

[Jake]

They also recently won an NBA championship.

Forbes listed OKC as having an operating income of 129 million in 2022. Higher than Denver, Atlanta, Phoenix, Miami, etc. This ownership group isn’t broke.

[PhiAlpha]

So, he negotiated way down in private? Or did he deliberately mislead?

Your guess is as good as mine.

To restate my position again: I don't love the proposal, would prefer more details on it, a more public process so that we didn't feel like we're rushing it to a vote and if the ownership group isn't paying rent and giving up their share of arena revenues, would definitely prefer that they at least put $100 million into it but will vote yes to avoid opening the door to any chance that the team is sold and leaves in similar fashion to Seattle. This isn't the hill I want to die on to push more government transparency and/or to try to get a better deal.

[Pete]

All that needs to happen is that City Council tables their vote until there can be an impartial analysis of how this deal compares with other NBA arenas. You know, actually have a public process instead of forcing the "we need to pay over $1 billion right this very minute otherwise the owners will immediately leave" narrative down everyone's throat.

There is nothing magical about the Dec. 12th public vote date, and if there was the people involved shouldn't have waited until mid-September before even broad details were released.