University Town Center

[Pete]

^

OU is not acquiring land in or around Campus Corner.

You really have no idea what you are talking about.

[jdross1982]

I noticed the FAQ mentions there is no proposed timeline for this project. Since the Campus Corner "leveling" project is also pending in the background, to me it makes sense that these projects could coordinate. So I don't understand why the campus corner area isn't considered for the arena location. Especially with $800MM in private investment is planned (which is for profit sharing from the entertainment district). Isn't that exactly what the new campus corner is supposed to be? Bars, restaurants, hotels, housing. LNC is 3k more capacity than this proposed arena, it could fit somewhere in CC no problem.

Seems like a missed opportunity to do some really cool urban integration for campus corner with the arena as an anchor piece.

The CC project and UNP/this arena + project would take all of the property from Boyd to W Duffy and S University to RR tracks. While that would be awesome, it would require every single one of the property owners to sell which most likely would require eminent domain to get the deal done. So yes, an investment of somewhere in the ballpark of 1.5 billion in this area would be great but far cry from reality.

[jdross1982]

LOL - Sooner fans... if a few critiques on a dumb proposal hurts your feelings that much put me on ignore now. Just bury your head in the sand that OU can't do better and doesn't deserve better of a new arena proposal than some dumb faux entertainment strip mall in UTC when they could do something way better around Campus Corner or elsewhere. Especially if the university is acquiring land and planning a redevelopment of Campus Corner this is just a massive, massive miss. Only endless sunshine pumpers allowed on OKCTalk, I forget.

OU ISN'T ACQURING ANY LAND OR INVESTING A SINGLE PENNY IN UNP OR IN CC. An investor is 80% fronting the UNP development with 20% coming from the community and once again NOT OU. OU is not investing a single penny in CC either. Just because you "think" OU is fronting it doesn't mean they are. OU has other needs they are looking at which includes more than both of these investments combined to address the needs of the University. Get your head out of the sand or more likely a sheep's rear and end your bias to all things OU. Good bye pokie

[BDP]

I have not moved the goal posts at all and no one has proved anything I've brought up wrong either. Maybe you all know better than Fitch and other credit rating agencies. Just start your own maybe?

I think what people are trying to point out to you is that you either misunderstand the developments you are talking about or you are misrepresenting them for some reason. There are a few examples of this, but the most obvious one is that you keep bringing up the school's credit rating in context of a proposal that doesn't use the school's credit. You used your crystal ball to weave a narrative where it will come into play to justify the connections, but it's irrelevant at least as far how the proposal has been presented.

[UrbanistPoke]

^

OU is not acquiring land in or around Campus Corner.

You really have no idea what you are talking about.

Ok, so the campus corner redevelopment everyone on OKCTalk seems to think is happening (including you) is just a bunch of smoke and made up? Ok that's cool then I guess...

[kevin lee]

What I don't understand is the opinion that this needs to be on campus. Yea, it would be great but there are plenty of examples where off-campus arenas have thrived. UofL has an arena miles and miles away from campus and they're constantly number one in attendance with a team that hasn't made the tourney in a few years. I know we're not the Cards and can't expect to fill over 12,000 seats when the team isn't performing well, but I see very few flaws in this proposal. That's just my opinion.

[Pete]

Ok, so the campus corner redevelopment everyone on OKCTalk seems to think is happening (including you) is just a bunch of smoke and made up? Ok that's cool then I guess...

No, it's being done by private developers.

I don't know why you are having such a hard time with this concept.

[UrbanistPoke]

I think what people are trying to point out to you is that you either misunderstand the developments you are talking about or you are misrepresenting them for some reason. There are a few examples of this, but the most obvious one is that you keep bringing up the school's credit rating in context of a proposal that doesn't use the school's credit. You used your crystal ball to weave a narrative where it will come into play to justify the connections, but it's irrelevant at least as far how the proposal has been presented.

If this isn't clear than I understand that, and I see your point. You're literally the only one that is saying something reasonable in saying I don't get why you're saying this in connection to this.

The credit rating takes into it a lot of factors including endowment investments, debts, etc. I don't believe that OU isn't going to be in this proposal somehow (that's my opinion at this point). Even if it's an equity investment into the surrounding retail/mixed-use development and is only a lease with the city for the arena they are still going to be involved somehow. If it goes bad that will impact OU's credit rating even more if their endowment is not collecting as much revenue off investment. OU's endowment has made some really bad real estate investments in the past too. That's part of what has gotten OU into some of it's debt problems. UTC was a contributing factor to that as well. To act like it's been revenue positive for OU isn't true, just look at the financial details behind it all. I feel like this is why OU leadership is pushing this given they want to spark more development in this area and they think an arena will help. It's not. They'd be better off trying to build a Norman version of Wheeler District here (my opinion) and build an area within walking distance to campus and do a public-private partnership there and forget about an arena at UTC in a suburban wasteland. There isn't a good example of an arena built in a suburban environment like UTC that has ever created a sustainable, profitable surrounding mixed-use development. In downtown areas, sure, but even those took a lot of public subsidies. I don't get how people here think this is going to magically get paid for. A developer/private group isn't going to pay for the arena and surrounding development without help somehow.

[john60]

Sorry if this was already answered - lots going on here...but who exactly is putting in the $800 million of private money, and has that actually been raised? That is a massive private investment (and as I understand it, is not coming from the OU Foundation).

[Anonymous.]

The CC project and UNP/this arena + project would take all of the property from Boyd to W Duffy and S University to RR tracks. While that would be awesome, it would require every single one of the property owners to sell which most likely would require eminent domain to get the deal done. So yes, an investment of somewhere in the ballpark of 1.5 billion in this area would be great but far cry from reality.

Think how sick it would be to have Boyd lined with housing, bars, restaurants. All the way from University to Monnett. Then have the arena and hotels and parking just north in the existing main CC footprint. It would probably be north of 2.5 billion in investment. It is definitely a pipe dream, but seeing these two groups work together would sure be something.

[Pete]

^

OU sold most of the land at UNP for pure profit and still owns most the property north of Rock Creek.


Okay, I'm done now. It's been established you aren't worth debating.

[PhiAlpha]

Only a slightly unhinged reply haha. I don't think you understand OSU alumni and where did I say anything about football? If OSU proposed an idea like this I would frankly be even more harsh, as would most OSU people. OU fans, especially non alumni, have a really difficult time with reality.

LOL. I've never understood why some people think having a fanbase made up only of students and alumni is such a flex. Translation...your school has never been good enough a sport, that anyone actually cares about, to gain a fanbase outside of those who went to school there.

Yes, it really sucks to have a bunch of non alumni fans that sell out the stadium every weekend, donate to the school/athletic department, help expand the brand and send their children there.

[Jersey Boss]

Sorry if this was already answered - lots going on here...but who exactly is putting in the $800 million of private money, and has that actually been raised? That is a massive private investment (and as I understand it, is not coming from the OU Foundation).

If you think about who would have this kind of money and is connected to OU it is pretty easy to figure out. I'd be willing to bet several of us know.

[UrbanistPoke]

No, it's being done by private developers.

I don't know why you are having such a hard time with this concept.

I'm not having a hard time, you just need to re-read what I said in a day or two. I'm being objective and apparently someone can't do that if they aren't a Sooner fan. It's funny everyone including you are so upset by it - do you not want people to have a different opinion than you on your board? If not, happy to leave. I find this all comical how hurt everyone's feeling are by me saying OU can do better (so horrible of me!!!) and it's a dumb financial move for them even if the only thing it costs them is lease payments to play sports there. It's dumb to have an arena so far away from campus where they could benefit more from having it incorporated into a public-private partnership. Why do you think I think only OU could do the campus corner redevelopment? I have literally never said that - you all are just really amped up that some one dares to say an idea is stupid. Questioning the university leadership would be helpful for OU because not questioning them for so many decades got them into a lot of trouble. Even for as many great things as Boren did and others, the debt issues at OU are real whether you all want to realize it or not.

[UrbanistPoke]

If you think about who would have this kind of money and is connected to OU it is pretty easy to figure out. I'd be willing to bet several of us know.

Well apparently everyone thinks it's coming from magic beans in the ground and an arena will just sprout out in five years when it blooms.

If there's a private individual that can donate that much or several - it shouldn't be built in UTC.

What everyone seems to be claiming when that's brought up is that the arena will be paid for by the surrounding development and income from the retail, apartments, etc. So a private developer will build the arena out of the kindness of their hearts and foregoing profit on surrounding development to make sure that happens according to many here. No help from OU at all, just a small $20-30 million help from City of Norman, County, etc.

[john60]

If you think about who would have this kind of money and is connected to OU it is pretty easy to figure out. I'd be willing to bet several of us know.

Ha, I was thinking some of them may be spending a big chunk of money on an arena 20 miles to the north. The UT arrangement as I understand it is pretty interesting. National group associated with Live Nation gets rights/revenue from concerts and non-UT sports events -- basically built an awesome arena music venue in a town that didn't have one before. Just didn't know if it was some national group that is not really OU/Oklahoma based. And while the Chickasaws have some decent-sized venues, they don't have an arena for concerts etc.

[PhiAlpha]

I'm not having a hard time, you just need to re-read what I said in a day or two. I'm being objective and apparently someone can't do that if they aren't a Sooner fan. It's funny everyone including you are so upset by it - do you not want people to have a different opinion than you on your board? If not, happy to leave. I find this all comical how hurt everyone's feeling are by me saying OU can do better (so horrible of me!!!) and it's a dumb financial move for them even if the only thing it costs them is lease payments to play sports there. It's dumb to have an arena so far away from campus where they could benefit more from having it incorporated into a public-private partnership. Why do you think I think only OU could do the campus corner redevelopment? I have literally never said that - you all are just really amped up that some one dares to say an idea is stupid. Questioning the university leadership would be helpful for OU because not questioning them for so many decades got them into a lot of trouble. Even for as many great things as Boren did and others, the debt issues at OU are real whether you all want to realize it or not.

Private developers acquiring private property on campus corner want to build a mixed use entertainment district and DON'T want to put an arena in it. OU does NOT own the land and does NOT control what happens there.

Private developers AND THE CITY want to build a mixed use entertainment district at university north park WITH an arena in it. OU DOES own the land and DOES control of what happens there.

It's also 10-15 minutes closer to where the majority of people who go to OU basketball games live and is still technically on campus.

[UrbanistPoke]

LOL. I've never understood why some people think having a fanbase made up only of students and alumni is such a flex. Translation...your school has never been good enough a sport, that anyone actually cares about, to gain a fanbase outside of those who went to school there.

Yes, it really sucks to have a bunch of non alumni fans that sell out the stadium every weekend, donate to the school/athletic department, help expand the brand and send their children there.

LOL - OSU has plenty of non alumni fans too and they are just not only fans of OSU when they win like a big portion of the non-alumni OU fans and they are not football only fans like a huge portion of non-alumni OU fans. Our football program has sucked the majority of it's existence. You all didn't sell out your stadium prior to Stoops very often... so congrats. That HUGE non alumni fan base supported you all really well then and will in the future if you all ever start losing regularly which is bound to happen as every program has cycles (yes even OU, Bama, etc.)

I do find it hilarious that you want to discuss football/OU in a proposal about OU's possible new basketball arena... the irony is not lost on any non OU lover. You do realize there's other sports at OU right? Like, basketball for example.. the point of this specific thread topics right? How many basketball sellouts does that huge OU fan base account for in the last several decades at OU - haha.

[BDP]

I'm not having a hard time, you just need to re-read what I said in a day or two. I'm being objective and apparently someone can't do that if they aren't a Sooner fan. It's funny everyone including you are so upset by it - do you not want people to have a different opinion than you on your board? If not, happy to leave. I find this all comical how hurt everyone's feeling are by me saying OU can do better (so horrible of me!!!) and it's a dumb financial move for them even if the only thing it costs them is lease payments to play sports there. It's dumb to have an arena so far away from campus where they could benefit more from having it incorporated into a public-private partnership. Why do you think I think only OU could do the campus corner redevelopment? I have literally never said that - you all are just really amped up that some one dares to say an idea is stupid. Questioning the university leadership would be helpful for OU because not questioning them for so many decades got them into a lot of trouble. Even for as many great things as Boren did and others, the debt issues at OU are real whether you all want to realize it or not.

In context of campus corner, you have stated that the university is making acquisitions and is a part of the redevelopment efforts. That doesn't seem to be the case.

In general, you are overstating the University's role in these developments, especially financially, in your criticisms.

I'm not going to pretend to know the ins and outs of OU's credit rating or endowment portfolio, but if those issues hinder the building of a new basketball facility, then it just sounds like they came up with a solution to that. You can use your imagination to weave those issues into these developments, but honestly, that's where the rivalry bias is showing.

[jedicurt]

I'm being objective and apparently someone can't do that if they aren't a Sooner fan.

except you aren't being objective. the objective facts are that OU isn't the one making these land acquisitions, or putting this money forward. it is private developers who have gotten private investors to support their plans. Especially with CC, OU literally has nothing to do with it, at all. that is the objective facts.

you are not being objective, you are subjectively changing changing reality to make it fit your narrative that you want to talk about. just because you say you are objective, does not mean you are.

[jedicurt]

Well apparently everyone thinks it's coming from magic beans in the ground and an arena will just sprout out in five years when it blooms.

If there's a private individual that can donate that much or several - it shouldn't be built in UTC.

What everyone seems to be claiming when that's brought up is that the arena will be paid for by the surrounding development and income from the retail, apartments, etc. So a private developer will build the arena out of the kindness of their hearts and foregoing profit on surrounding development to make sure that happens according to many here. No help from OU at all, just a small $20-30 million help from City of Norman, County, etc.

now you are just admitting that you don't know how real-estate developments work.

[PhiAlpha]

LOL - OSU has plenty of non alumni fans too and they are just not only fans of OSU when they win like a big portion of the non-alumni OU fans. You all didn't sell out your stadium prior to Stoops very often... so congrats. That HUGE non alumni fan base supported you all really well then and will in the future if you all ever start losing regularly which is bound to happen as every program has cycles (yes even OU, Bama, etc.)

I do find it hilarious that you want to discuss football/OU in a proposal about OU's possible new basketball arena... the irony is not lost on any non OU lover. You do realize there's other sports at OU right? Like, basketball for example.. the point of this specific thread topics right?

Yes, OU had trouble selling out the stadium for one 3-5 year period from 1945-2023.

Yep we have other sports. You know why we talk about football? Because it pays for all those other sports with a bunch left over and basketball, the second highest revenue generating sport, can't generate enough revenue or donations to fund its own arena. OU's football program is the reason it's going to the SEC and the reason it's athletic department is about to make substantially more revenue than any of the Big 12 teams do...a number that will continue increasing while the revenue share per team in the Big 12 will decrease.

[UrbanistPoke]

now you are just admitting that you don't know how real-estate developments work.

You got me. I'll be declaring bankruptcy tomorrow just for you - I don't know how to do the thing I've done for decades. Enlighten me oh great one of how this is being paid for again?

[chssooner]

You got me. I'll be declaring bankruptcy tomorrow just for you - I don't know how to do the thing I've done for decades. Enlighten me oh great one of how this is being paid for again?

Private, non-OU funds for 80% of it. Not sure how you are missing that. And 20% public funding (TIF or bonds).

Not sure where your disconnect is.

[UrbanistPoke]

Yes, OU had trouble selling out the stadium for one 3-5 year period from 1945-2023.

Yep we have other sports. You know why we talk about football? Because it pays for all those other sports with a bunch left over and basketball, the second highest revenue generating sport, can't generate enough revenue or donations to fund its own arena. OU's football program is the reason it's going to the SEC and the reason it's athletic department is about to make substantially more revenue than any of the Big 12 teams do...a number that will continue increasing while the revenue share per team in the Big 12 will decrease.

Then why even have the other programs? Why have someone else build an arena for OU basketball? I don't get what you're even arguing.

Congrats, you uncovered the secret that everyone knows... football makes the most money. I'm glad you taught me that today. No clue that was the reason OU is going to the SEC. That's awesome, all makes sense to me now - thank you.

Can we go back to the topic of what this is about, because it's not OU football or football at all.