Lumberyard

[soonerguru]

This is insane! You want to tax real property that doesn't exist?

Profit incentive is why I develop. If there is not one, I wouldn't. Property taxes are the largest expense I have on any/all properties.

If there is an incentive to develop, it will happen. If there is none, it won't, and people will hold land.

This may apply for you but OKC has numerous “buy and hold” examples that refute your all-encompassing declaration. They don’t have the resources or ability to develop these key properties so they are simply hoping some bigger fish will come in and offer them stupid money for the land.

Your purity ideology is why OKC has so many empty tracts sitting undeveloped in prime, extremely developable locations. There are plenty of developers who would move forward with land along Scissortail Park, but to do so they would have to offer insane money to the land squatters.

[Pete]

This deal will figure itself out. If there is no clear path to distributions or profit, they will market the property for sale and admit defeat. Property tax and interest (if they borrowed on the land) will eat them alive.

They stated in their prospectus to investors that they were acquiring everything without borrowing, so my understanding there is little to no debt that has to be serviced.

Also, I totaled the most recent property tax for everything they own in this area and it is right around $200K per year, which isn't that much in the grand scheme of their total investment to date.


They have already owned most of this property for around 5 years and they seem in zero hurry to actually develop or sell and I'm sure that's why a big group of their investors is suing them.

It's just not a good situation given they control so much important land that borders on huge public investments. One of the main people involved, Fred Mazaheri, has already missed contractual deadlines that were part of his settlement with the City that resulted in him getting ownership of the most important parcel: the former Goodwill property.

I'm not sure what the solution is but giving them $16 million in TIF money (for starters) seems a little irresponsible given everything that has happened to date.

[Pete]

None of this makes any sense.

Just so you know, most of us feel the same.

[chssooner]

They stated in their prospectus to investors that they were acquiring everything without borrowing, so my understanding there is little to no debt that has to be serviced.

Also, I totaled the most recent property tax for everything they own in this area and it is right around $200K per year, which isn't that much in the grand scheme of their total investment to date.


They have already owned most of this property for around 5 years and they seem in zero hurry to actually develop or sell and I'm sure that's why a big group of their investors is suing them.

It's just not a good situation given they control so much important land that borders on huge public investments. One of the main people involved, Fred Mazaheri, has already missed contractual deadlines that were part of his settlement with the City that resulted in him getting ownership of the most important parcel: the former Goodwill property.

I'm not sure what the solution is but giving them $16 million in TIF money (for starters) seems a little irresponsible given everything that has happened to date.

My only question is, was the TIF money given to them up front? Or on an "as earned" basis? I honestly don't know how it works, or if it varies from project to project.

[Pete]

My only question is, was the TIF money given to them up front? Or on an "as earned" basis? I honestly don't know how it works, or if it varies from project to project.

Up front because it is to be used for infrastructure.

[chssooner]

Up front because it is to be used for infrastructure.

Ouch. I wish we could, as citizens, actually petition TIF funding to be given out on either a reimbursement or after completion basis.

[seventyseven77]

This may apply for you but OKC has numerous “buy and hold” examples that refute your all-encompassing declaration. They don’t have the resources or ability to develop these key properties so they are simply hoping some bigger fish will come in and offer them stupid money for the land.

Your purity ideology is why OKC has so many empty tracts sitting undeveloped in prime, extremely developable locations. There are plenty of developers who would move forward with land along Scissortail Park, but to do so they would have to offer insane money to the land squatters.

Developable doesn't equal profitable.

[Just the facts]

Developable doesn't equal profitable.

If the market can't support a development that will make your land profitable isn't that an indication that you over-paid for the land?

[seventyseven77]

If the market can't support a development that will make your land profitable isn't that an indication that you over-paid for the land?

Correct. Or it has a higher/better use, like holding it and parking cars on it.....or grazing goats.

[Canoe]

This is insane! You want to tax real property that doesn't exist?

Profit incentive is why I develop. If there is not one, I wouldn't. Property taxes are the largest expense I have on any/all properties.

If there is an incentive to develop, it will happen. If there is none, it won't, and people will hold land.

77, Are you sure the owner's of the vacant lots aren't just afraid or lazy? Are you saying that the old Ford dealership and Strawberry Fields cannot be developed profitably? I bet someone like Pivot or the Humpries could take Strawberry Fields or the old Ford Dealership and make money while improving the City. Now of course they cannot do this if the current Owners will not sell the property or if they value the land to highly.

[Plutonic Panda]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Want a downtown grocery store? Want this lot to be developed and cleaned up as it is contaminated? Allow for a suburban style big box development with a couple extra gimmicks that make it slightly more walkable then your typical OKC suburban development.

I know that isn’t ideal but design it to be a throwaway development that easily be redeveloped in 15-20 years. Meanwhile focus quality urbanism on the seemingly unlimited rest of the land that exists in the core. There’s tons of it.

[Just the facts]

This should clear things up.

https://youtu.be/ok2uR3btMrE

[Plutonic Panda]

This should clear things up.

https://youtu.be/ok2uR3btMrE

Or we could all just donate a dollar every time you mention a land value tax is needed and crowdfund a development here.

[Urbanized]

Good grief. This isn't SIM City. It took 50+ years to decimate OKC's core via urban renewal and many other factors. It has been remarkable how much it has bounced back in 25 years (the first downtown MAPS project landed in 1998), and really mostly in the past 10 years on the private side. Rebuilding devastated urban fabric takes time.

While I think it is perfectly legitimate to question the development chops of the Strawberry Fields ownership - especially in light of the recent legal developments - and also to some extent the lumberyard ownership (moreso due to the lack of performance on the Goodwill property), the ownership of the old Ford dealership is among the most proven developers in OKC. Most of what has happened in Midtown - which has been just shy of stunning - has been at the hands of the same group.

The rush to have SOMETHING on some of these sites - ANYTHING - is incredibly short-sighted. Regarding the Ford site there is an amazing amount of churn likely to happen nearby soon; Paycom, PSM, a new arena, but first likely a VOTE for a new arena. All of this will likely dictate what the highest and best use becomes for that dealership spot. And many of the comments I see here are also completely detached from reality when it comes to finance, business case, materials...it is now a very different world than it was even a year ago, much less three. The office market and commercial real estate in general are also very shaky.

And by the way, just because someone CAN AFFORD to build something doesn't mean that they SHOULD, or that it is the correct time for that project. At the end of the day a project simply MUST work in a spreadsheet to justify turning dirt. The bank requires it and the balance sheet requires it. Building something that looks great on paper but which doesn't pencil is the surest route to the poorhouse.

And for some premium properties I would much rather watch them sit unimproved for a few more years than to get the wrong thing, or a thing that isn't as great as it could be, just because someone was in a rush to put up something and to not have to look at an empty lot. I would expect that we won't see or hear anything regarding the old Ford lot until - at the very least - the dust settles on what will happen to PSM, the Paycom Center, and the new arena. And honestly that's most likely the best outcome.

[G.Walker]

The Ford site has been sitting vacant for decades. Only to have other development spring up around it. You can't tell me they are waiting for the right time, when they are just using it for Paycom Center parking. The Ford site is probably the most prime real estate in all of OKC and its a parking lot.

Myriad Gardens to the north, Scissortail to the south, Paycom Center to the east. In the heart of downtown, come on, give me a bait....

[Just the facts]

The Ford site has been sitting vacant for decades. Only to have other development spring up around it. You can't tell me they are waiting for the right time, when they are just using it for Paycom Center parking. The Ford site is probably the most prime real estate in all of OKC and its a parking lot.

Myriad Gardens to the north, Scissortail to the south, Paycom Center to the east. In the heart of downtown, come on, give me a bait....

Yeah, exactly what coming adjacent development is all of a sudden going to flip the switch that makes development of the Ford site possible? A $50 million adjacent park and botanical garden? A $120 million grand park? A $250 million Convention Center? A $300 million dollar NBA Arena? A movie studio next door? A streetcar on 2 sides? What could possibly be left that pushes that property into viability?

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeah right just scrap the suburban big box idea it’s much better the way it is for the next two decades.

[Just the facts]

Yeah right just scrap the suburban big box idea it’s much better the way it is for the next two decades.

What do you mean? Are you suggesting just throw away 20 years of urbanism because all of the remaining property owners refuse to participate in it now?

[Plutonic Panda]

What do you mean? Are you suggesting just throw away 20 years of urbanism because all of the remaining property owners refuse to participate in it now?

I’ll elaborate in a minute

[Teo9969]

Good grief. This isn't SIM City. It took 50+ years to decimate OKC's core via urban renewal and many other factors. It has been remarkable how much it has bounced back in 25 years (the first downtown MAPS project landed in 1998), and really mostly in the past 10 years on the private side. Rebuilding devastated urban fabric takes time.

While I think it is perfectly legitimate to question the development chops of the Strawberry Fields ownership - especially in light of the recent legal developments - and also to some extent the lumberyard ownership (moreso due to the lack of performance on the Goodwill property), the ownership of the old Ford dealership is among the most proven developers in OKC. Most of what has happened in Midtown - which has been just shy of stunning - has been at the hands of the same group.

The rush to have SOMETHING on some of these sites - ANYTHING - is incredibly short-sighted. Regarding the Ford site there is an amazing amount of churn likely to happen nearby soon; Paycom, PSM, a new arena, but first likely a VOTE for a new arena. All of this will likely dictate what the highest and best use becomes for that dealership spot. And many of the comments I see here are also completely detached from reality when it comes to finance, business case, materials...it is now a very different world than it was even a year ago, much less three. The office market and commercial real estate in general are also very shaky.

And by the way, just because someone CAN AFFORD to build something doesn't mean that they SHOULD, or that it is the correct time for that project. At the end of the day a project simply MUST work in a spreadsheet to justify turning dirt. The bank requires it and the balance sheet requires it. Building something that looks great on paper but which doesn't pencil is the surest route to the poorhouse.

And for some premium properties I would much rather watch them sit unimproved for a few more years than to get the wrong thing, or a thing that isn't as great as it could be, just because someone was in a rush to put up something and to not have to look at an empty lot. I would expect that we won't see or hear anything regarding the old Ford lot until - at the very least - the dust settles on what will happen to PSM, the Paycom Center, and the new arena. And honestly that's most likely the best outcome.

PSM = Prairie Surf? I'm used to that meaning Penn Square Mall

[Dob Hooligan]

The Fred Jones Ford real estate belong to Hall Capital (the Fred Jones family) and Bob Howard. Mayor Holt has been employed by Hall Capital for several years. I think they have been pretty clear that they see this property as key to the urban core of a mature and growing city. The next use of it is a 100 year development. I see the Incomparable Myriad Convention Center as a salvage relic of an Urban Renewal Plan that is 50 years old. And that makes me understand how important it is to wait and make sure these blocks have the best and highest use long term development.

[Plutonic Panda]

OK basically I’m trying to understand just how much demand do you seem to think exist in OKC for urban development? Enough that there is a very interesting discussion board to speculate and keep track of ongoing developments but do you really think with every single vacant lot that exists plus these large scale projects like Wheeler and attempts at it like Strawberry Fields that is also room for this entire plot to be developed in any exciting timeframe?

Even as popular as Wheeler is it still has a long ways to go before it is even halfway finished. Strawberry Fields can’t get off the ground. For every piece of land that is getting developed there’s probably 20 other plots in the core that are vacant or don’t have anything on it at all. Lower Bricktown has masses of parking that should be developed yet you want to see this land become some urban utopia?

Generally I’m in the camp Urban Pioneer pointing out in build for the long term and not just to have something *ANYTHING* but not with this land. It is a contaminated site that needs expensive clean up and soil remediation. OKC is a car dominate city. This is also right off of the interstate. A UNP style suburban development would be wildly successful IMO and give all the amenities people on here whine and complain downtown doesn’t have.

In the mean time we can focus on fixing lower Bricktown, building out Wheeler District and Strawberry Fields, on top of the seemingly endless vacant lots in almost every other district. Focus on fixing the Bricktown Canal.

Yes what has happened in Midtown is awesome. But even with the tons of investment it has seen you’re still hard pressed to find a spot where a vacant piece of land or giant parking lot isn’t visible.

None of that is meant to be a knock on OKC but rather focus on quality development over quantity. If the demand was so great in OKC we’d should no problem with larger scale construction happening in Wheeler, Strawberry Fields, Austin/Nashville style growth with infill happening left and right, and this development should be underway. But that just isn’t the reality.

The other thing is this property is essentially boxed in by a massive interstate to the south, a very pedestrian unfriendly boulevard to the north, an essentially dead/underutilized park to the east, and a giant train track viaduct with little to no access to the west. It’s such a weird thing to focus on in terms of wanting quality urban development here when there’s so many other places something like that built here could go and make those areas better.

[Plutonic Panda]

And given its prime location off the interstate, I’ll make an even bolder statement and say this would be one of the most successful developments in Oklahoma City. It would also give people in downtown all the amenities right at their doorstep they would have anywhere else in the city.

At the end of the day, I just don’t think it’s realistic to expect every single piece of vacant land in and around downtown OKC to be developed into something you would expect in downtown Copenhagen. It needs to be some compromise in coming down to earth with our expectations. Getting this land developed now in generating tax revenue along with the soil being remediated with the expense of the next 10 to 15 years of it being a suburban big box style development does seem like a good long-term investment.

Given the fact that the long term sees a redevelopment of quality urban land, when the time calls. I don’t know why people on this thread are so scared that if something gets built now that’s the way it’s going to be forever.

[PhiAlpha]

Good grief. This isn't SIM City. It took 50+ years to decimate OKC's core via urban renewal and many other factors. It has been remarkable how much it has bounced back in 25 years (the first downtown MAPS project landed in 1998), and really mostly in the past 10 years on the private side. Rebuilding devastated urban fabric takes time.

While I think it is perfectly legitimate to question the development chops of the Strawberry Fields ownership - especially in light of the recent legal developments - and also to some extent the lumberyard ownership (moreso due to the lack of performance on the Goodwill property), the ownership of the old Ford dealership is among the most proven developers in OKC. Most of what has happened in Midtown - which has been just shy of stunning - has been at the hands of the same group.

The rush to have SOMETHING on some of these sites - ANYTHING - is incredibly short-sighted. Regarding the Ford site there is an amazing amount of churn likely to happen nearby soon; Paycom, PSM, a new arena, but first likely a VOTE for a new arena. All of this will likely dictate what the highest and best use becomes for that dealership spot. And many of the comments I see here are also completely detached from reality when it comes to finance, business case, materials...it is now a very different world than it was even a year ago, much less three. The office market and commercial real estate in general are also very shaky.

And by the way, just because someone CAN AFFORD to build something doesn't mean that they SHOULD, or that it is the correct time for that project. At the end of the day a project simply MUST work in a spreadsheet to justify turning dirt. The bank requires it and the balance sheet requires it. Building something that looks great on paper but which doesn't pencil is the surest route to the poorhouse.

And for some premium properties I would much rather watch them sit unimproved for a few more years than to get the wrong thing, or a thing that isn't as great as it could be, just because someone was in a rush to put up something and to not have to look at an empty lot. I would expect that we won't see or hear anything regarding the old Ford lot until - at the very least - the dust settles on what will happen to PSM, the Paycom Center, and the new arena. And honestly that's most likely the best outcome.

Great comment. Development for development's sake isn't a great idea. I feel like that's a one way ticket to poorly executed plans like lower bricktown that can't/won't easily be fixed for decades. It's not like there's a lack of available land in the core for anyone who really wants to develop something right now...it doesn't all need to be developed immediately.

[Plutonic Panda]

Great comment. Development for development's sake isn't a great idea. I feel like that's a one way ticket to poorly executed plans like lower bricktown that can't/won't easily be fixed for decades. It's not like there's a lack of available land in the core for anyone who really wants to develop something right now...it doesn't all need to be developed immediately.

Lower Bricktown is precisely an example of quantity over quality and that’s why I’m advocating to focus on existing urban areas and letting this one be put to use as something a little less than urban, ala cookie cutter suburban development that would bring use and revenue to the area.

This wouldn’t be development for developments sake, this is simply being a matter of realistic expectations on how many quality urban developments you think OKC is capable of supporting. Getting this developed immediately in this regard is a good thing. That isn’t always the case everywhere but in this case I believe it would be.