Lumberyard

[Pete]

Land value tax.

We heard you the first 50 times.


There are ordinances and contracts in place to deal with this; let's see if they are enforced.

[G.Walker]

Mazaheri is single handedly deterring downtown development.

[gjl]

He's owned the property for 8 years and they continued to let hundreds of cars park on this property (for a charge) after being fined several times. They did it again this past weekend.

Why should he be allowed to operate an unpaved paid parking lot? It's against all types of ordinances and design codes.

Also, claiming it is 'temporary' is ridiculous. What surface parking lot isn't temporary?


His M.O. is to buy property, promise big things then do absolutely nothing with them. He forced the City to give him the former Goodwill property as part of a lawsuit he brought and he has yet to meet any of the development deadlines.

On top of all this, this Lumberyard property sits directly east of the taxpayer-paid-for parking garage which is owned by the City. That garage is never full so basically he's taking paid parking from a multi-level structure (and also taking revenue from the City) by charging less because he hasn't even bothered to pave his lot or do anything that remotely conforms with design ordinances.


And if this gets approved, what's to stop every unpaved lot downtown from following suit?

Allowing unpaved parking is not only an eyesore but allows owners to generate a bunch of revenue and never do anything with the property.

Maybe OKC should start impounding the vehicles that park in those kinds of lots. That would put a stop to it once word gets out that's what will happen and people have to pay impound fees to get their car back.

[BoulderSooner]

Maybe OKC should start impounding the vehicles that park in those kinds of lots. That would put a stop to it once word gets out that's what will happen and people have to pay impound fees to get their car back.

i don't think they can legally do that to a vehicle parked on private property ..

[GoGators]

i don't think they can legally do that to a vehicle parked on private property ..

The city should ticket all of the cars in these lots for parking on an unpaved surface. I believe the ticket is 100 dollars. It doesn't matter if the property is private or not. Have code enforcement sweep through the area a couple of times a day for a week and these lots would be gone.

[BoulderSooner]

The city should ticket all of the cars in these lots for parking on an unpaved surface. I believe the ticket is 100 dollars. It doesn't matter if the property is private or not. Have code enforcement sweep through the area a couple of times a day for a week and these lots would be gone.

also don't think they can do that ..

when someone parks on their grass at a house that is not a ticket for the car .. it is a violation for the house ..

[TheTravellers]

also don't think they can do that ..

when someone parks on their grass at a house that is not a ticket for the car .. it is a violation for the house ..

Then have code enforcement write a violation for the owner of the address for every car on that unpaved surface.

[GoGators]

also don't think they can do that ..

when someone parks on their grass at a house that is not a ticket for the car .. it is a violation for the house ..

Even better. The penalty should be assessed to the property owner facilitating the illegal parking. There would be little reason for the site owners to operate these pay to park lots if every car coming in was going to cost them 100 dollar fine. This should be heavily enforced with zero tolerance.

[Laramie]

Give the parking lot owner whatever days are allowed to correct this problem (must meet code for paved surface lot for parking) with appropriate fines and penalties for code violations.

[BoulderSooner]

Even better. The penalty should be assessed to the property owner facilitating the illegal parking. There would be little reason for the site owners to operate these pay to park lots if every car coming in was going to cost them 100 dollar fine. This should be heavily enforced with zero tolerance.

except i think the violation is not written to be a ticket per car ... it is just a ticket ..

[seventyseven77]

This board has weird expectations for development.

What the eff is a "Land Value Tax"? How is that different than property tax that is already being levied? The land is valued and taxed!

If the dirt that land owners is so valuable, then buy it from them and develop it! How is anyone stopping progress? Strawberry fields is not a good deal! Those investors regret the investment, largely because it doesn't work at the current densities, demand, interest rates, construction costs and rents.....

[Pete]

This board has weird expectations for development.

What the eff is a "Land Value Tax"? How is that different than property tax that is already being levied? The land is valued and taxed!

If the dirt that land owners is so valuable, then buy it from them and develop it! How is anyone stopping progress? Strawberry fields is not a good deal! Those investors regret the investment, largely because it doesn't work at the current densities, demand, interest rates, construction costs and rents.....

I've heard countless developers say the same thing about Strawberry Fields, as I know many have been approached.

It makes me wonder what is ever going to change because they control so much important property and don't seem to have any sort of workable plan.

[GoGators]

This board has weird expectations for development.

What the eff is a "Land Value Tax"? How is that different than property tax that is already being levied? The land is valued and taxed!

If the dirt that land owners is so valuable, then buy it from them and develop it! How is anyone stopping progress? Strawberry fields is not a good deal! Those investors regret the investment, largely because it doesn't work at the current densities, demand, interest rates, construction costs and rents.....

Property taxes assess the value of the structures/improvements on a property. Land value tax only assess the value of the land based on its location. So a vacant lot downtown would essentially pay the same amount of taxes as the Devon tower. Makes it impossible for someone to buy and hold property for long periods of time. Basically forces the owner to develop a property now or sell to someone who will.

[Just the facts]

Toronto implemented LVT-Lite in 2018. They currently have over 250 highrises being constructed. They also use TIFs but the money collected goes to mass transit in the area and not to the developers.

There is a big push in Ontario, Canada to go full LVT.

[G.Walker]

^
I agree this is the best option. Too many owners are sitting on prime property downtown for "parking". The old Ford site between Myriad Gardens and Scissortail is another example. Too many prime lots that have been sitting vacant for decades.

[seventyseven77]

Property taxes assess the value of the structures/improvements on a property. Land value tax only assess the value of the land based on its location. So a vacant lot downtown would essentially pay the same amount of taxes as the Devon tower. Makes it impossible for someone to buy and hold property for long periods of time. Basically forces the owner to develop a property now or sell to someone who will.

This is insane! You want to tax real property that doesn't exist?

Profit incentive is why I develop. If there is not one, I wouldn't. Property taxes are the largest expense I have on any/all properties.

If there is an incentive to develop, it will happen. If there is none, it won't, and people will hold land.

[catch22]

There isn’t enough capital in OKC to develop all of these lots at once, and there isn’t enough demand to fill all of those potential offices, hotels, restaurants, and retail spaces. “Forcing to sell to someone who will” might work in an area that has no more land to develop, but the number of people who can buy and develop these lots are few relative to the number of vacant parcels. It wouldn’t work. Where is all of this money coming from?

It’s not like developers are fighting each other for land downtown. They are building at a pace that the market is absorbing.

[chssooner]

There isn’t enough capital in OKC to develop all of these lots at once, and there isn’t enough demand to fill all of those potential offices, hotels, restaurants, and retail spaces. “Forcing to sell to someone who will” might work in an area that has no more land to develop, but the number of people who can buy and develop these lots are few relative to the number of vacant parcels. It wouldn’t work. Where is all of this money coming from?

It’s not like developers are fighting each other for land downtown. They are building at a pace that the market is absorbing.

Which is the best way to do it, at least in my opinion.

[Pete]

^

There is another big factor at work, at least in terms of Strawberry Fields: they paid too much for the land for any type of development to work, at least at today's construction costs, interest rates, and what the market will bear on rent for housing, office and restaurant space.

They have been trying to find local development partners for years and the same conclusion has been reached and that was mostly before the recent inflation hit.

So, because they don't owe anything on the property (I believe it was all purchased without much or any loans) I'm afraid they will just sit on it for a long time because any development would not cash flow and nobody will buy it from them because it is overpriced. I'm sure this reality is what prompted the SF investor lawsuit.

[Richard at Remax]

Sometimes it's better to get out of something and lose a little money than to lose all your money

[Soonerinfiniti]

Property taxes are based on an Oklahoma County Assessor valuation. If the property is vacant, it is valued as vacant. When a property is improved, the land/building are valued by Oklahoma County - not sure they break out the land value.

[Pete]

Property taxes are based on an Oklahoma County Assessor valuation. If the property is vacant, it is valued as vacant. When a property is improved, the land/building are valued by Oklahoma County - not sure they break out the land value.

True, but the property assessment is generally reset at the last selling price.

Since most of this property was purchased recently and for a fair amount of money, the taxes are not cheap.

[Just the facts]

There isn’t enough capital in OKC to develop all of these lots at once, and there isn’t enough demand to fill all of those potential offices, hotels, restaurants, and retail spaces. “Forcing to sell to someone who will” might work in an area that has no more land to develop, but the number of people who can buy and develop these lots are few relative to the number of vacant parcels. It wouldn’t work. Where is all of this money coming from?

It’s not like developers are fighting each other for land downtown. They are building at a pace that the market is absorbing.

You are making a lot of assumptions. If OKC did have an LVT we don't know what the land would be valued at and we don't know what the tax rate would be, and both of those are the major components in calculating the taxes. However, one thing we do know is that the owners of vacant land couldn't afford to just sit on it indefinitely. At a minimum it would have to be used to generate enough revenue to pay the taxes. Now, would that be a dog park that sells annual memberships for $100/dog or a high-rise condo with a $10 million penthouse? Who knows - the market wiil figure that out, but the result is that the property is put to the best and highest use.

In the case of Toronto, they tax the land at its highest and best use regardless of what is built on it. A 50 story condo tower gets taxed the same as the 1 story fast-food establishmeng next door, which is why Toronto is building more 50 story condo towers than 1 story fast -food restaurants.

Toronto is doing this to drive down housing prices by simply flooding the market and it is working. Condo prices have dropped from over $1,000,000 to about $500,000 and there are about 65,000 vacant condos for sale do prices will continue to drop. Which also stops the real estate investment companies from buying up all the inventory because prices will be in decline for a long long time.

[seventyseven77]

You are making a lot of assumptions. If OKC did have an LVT we don't know what the land would be valued at and we don't know what the tax rate would be, and both of those are the major components in calculating the taxes. However, one thing we do know is that the owners of vacant land couldn't afford to just sit on it indefinitely. At a minimum it would have to be used to generate enough revenue to pay the taxes. Now, would that be a dog park that sells annual memberships for $100/dog or a high-rise condo with a $10 million penthouse? Who knows - the market wiil figure that out, but the result is that the property is put to the best and highest use.

In the case of Toronto, they tax the land at its highest and best use regardless of what is built on it. A 50 story condo tower gets taxed the same as the 1 story fast-food establishmeng next door, which is why Toronto is building more 50 story condo towers than 1 story fast -food restaurants.

Toronto is doing this to drive down housing prices by simply flooding the market and it is working. Condo prices have dropped from over $1,000,000 to about $500,000 and there are about 65,000 vacant condos for sale do prices will continue to drop. Which also stops the real estate investment companies from buying up all the inventory because prices will be in decline for a long long time.

None of this makes any sense.

[seventyseven77]

^

There is another big factor at work, at least in terms of Strawberry Fields: they paid too much for the land for any type of development to work, at least at today's construction costs, interest rates, and what the market will bear on rent for housing, office and restaurant space.

They have been trying to find local development partners for years and the same conclusion has been reached and that was mostly before the recent inflation hit.

So, because they don't owe anything on the property (I believe it was all purchased without much or any loans) I'm afraid they will just sit on it for a long time because any development would not cash flow and nobody will buy it from them because it is overpriced. I'm sure this reality is what prompted the SF investor lawsuit.

This deal will figure itself out. If there is no clear path to distributions or profit, they will market the property for sale and admit defeat. Property tax and interest (if they borrowed on the land) will eat them alive.