New Downtown Arena

[Laramie]

Personally, IMO you can build something comparable to the SF Chase Center under $1 billion. You have construction companies that would make a low bid just to get a project of this magnitude.

IIFC, inflation on building materials is 14%, I'm going to go out on a limb and predict we will have a State-of-the art NBA arena in downtown Oklahoma City on the 4-square block site with similar specs as the SF Chase Center and Milwaukee's Fiserv Forum for right at $750 million for the arena itself, which includes demolition of the PSM site.

The Fiserv Forum cost $524 million for the arena itself.

[Mississippi Blues]

Surpassing $1bn isn’t a bad bet at all. If it were a fairly bare arena that is opening this year, $1bn might be a little harder to achieve, but to Urbanized’s point, 2030 is the most realistic “best case” scenario a new arena would open. If we wanted to have an arena like, say, Golden 1 Center in Sacramento, that opened in 2016 at a cost of $558.2m. Adjusting for inflation, that’s roughly $700m today. If inflation were to rise at the same rate as it has since 2016, $558m would come out to roughly $842m in 2030.

Of course, economics are never that cut and dry and there’s other factors (i.e. design trends, construction costs, location etc.) that will certainly change the numbers. Still, I think the prospect of an arena built in 2016 for $558.2m being adjusted to $842m in 2030 shows that on the best timeline, it’s not unreasonable to think an arena alone could carry a $1bn plus price tag without aiming for the lowest bar possible.

[Urbanized]

I mean, name the $1 billion ARENAS. Not the surrounding developments, not a new parking garage. Just the arena. I will wait.

The list is maybe 2 or 3. Amd then compare the land cost there with the fact OKC doesn't have to buy land, is dirt-cheap, and has low labor costs.

Why all of the qualifiers? Would you like for us to eliminate the cost of the roof, too? Dirt floor maybe?

This arena will 100% have associated extraneous team-controlled development and structured parking. Not a 99% chance, a 100% chance. The revenue streams from attached development is in large part what would be driving the new building. Also, land cost is relative; the land that will almost certainly be utilized here isn't a scraped lot. It will have demo, remediations and utility relocations that will likely be many millions, before the first dirt is turned.

And again I reiterate, it will be built AT LEAST a decade after every arena that has been cited in this thread, and in some cases TWO decades. A random $500 or $600 million building from fifteen to twenty years earlier? Not even worth discussing in this conversation. I'm sorry, it's not. We will frankly all be better off if we take a deep breath, swallow hard and recognize the realities of the year 2030. Tear off the band-aid. The building will be a billion dollars.

[chssooner]

Why all of the qualifiers? Would you like for us to eliminate the cost of the roof, too? Dirt floor maybe?

This arena will 100% have associated extraneous team-controlled development and structured parking. Not a 99% chance, a 100% chance. The revenue streams from attached development is in large part what would be driving the new building. Also, land cost is relative; the land that will almost certainly be utilized here isn't a scraped lot. It will have demo, remediations and utility relocations that will likely be many millions, before the first dirt is turned.

And again I reiterate, it will be built AT LEAST a decade after every arena that has been cited in this thread, and in some cases TWO decades. A random $500 or $600 million building from fifteen to twenty years earlier? Not even worth discussing in this conversation. I'm sorry, it's not. We will frankly all be better off if we take a deep breath, swallow hard and recognize the realities of the year 2030. Tear off the band-aid. The building will be a billion dollars.

Why should a separate skyscraper included in the cost of an arena? You said the arena. Not the arena and surrounding private development. OKC is cheap, already owns the and (which is sometimes 15-20% of the cost), has some of the cheapest labor around. Including demo'ing the old Cox Center.

The building will not be. OKC won't allow it, and neither will the owners, who are going to put up some of their money for it. If it does, I will venmo you money for a meal. But I doubt the ARENA structure costs that. Probably more in the $700 million range. It won't be the Chase enter or MSG. The owners are frugal, try to save every dime they can. Why would they splurge for a new arena? Same with OKC itself? They rarely splurge for ANYTHING.

[caaokc]

Chase Center’s entrance looks a lot like BOK Center

[Urbanized]

Why should a separate skyscraper included in the cost of an arena? You said the arena. Not the arena and surrounding private development. OKC is cheap, already owns the and (which is sometimes 15-20% of the cost), has some of the cheapest labor around. Including demo'ing the old Cox Center.

The building will not be. OKC won't allow it, and neither will the owners, who are going to put up some of their money for it. If it does, I will venmo you money for a meal. But I doubt the ARENA structure costs that. Probably more in the $700 million range. It won't be the Chase enter or MSG. The owners are frugal, try to save every dime they can. Why would they splurge for a new arena? Same with OKC itself? They rarely splurge for ANYTHING.

Who said anything about a skyscraper? And why do you keep moving the goalposts and trying to limit discussion to the arena bowl? Literally everyone else in this discussion is talking about the total expense of a project, INCLUDING the discussion around the recently-mentioned San Francisco complex. You don’t get to simply stifle discussion surrounding total project costs.

A billion dollars won’t be a splurge. It will be reality.

[Laramie]

.

I. Where should Oklahoma City build a new arena capable of supporting NBA in OKC:

1. Former cotton oil mill property
2. Bob Howard parking lots
3. Prairie Surf Studios (City owned)
4. Strawberry Fields
5. Other possible site

II. How much should our City pay for a new arena thru MAPS and/or Bonds:

1. $601 million - $700 million
2. $701 million - $800 million
3. $901 million - $1,000 billion
4. $1,001 billion - 1,100 billion
5. Other possible amount

III. How much should Thunder ownership Professional Basketball Club LLC pay on a new arena:

1. 10%
2. 15%
3. 20%
4. 25%
5. Other possible amount

.

[Laramie]

I'll begin with my view:

3. Prairie Surf Studios (City owned--demolition of site, salvage some underground parking)
2. $701 million - $800 million
1. 10%

An allowance for the Thunder--3 years free rent if they chip in !0%. This IMO is fair for a small market city like ours.

[Bill Robertson]

I'll begin with my view:

3. Prairie Surf Studios (City owned--demolition of site, salvage some underground parking)
2. $701 million - $800 million
1. 10%

An allowance for the Thunder--3 years free rent if they chip in !0%. This IMO is fair for a small market city like ours.

Those are the same 3 that I would choose.

[stlokc]

In a perfect world where we don't need a new arena, I would prefer that the Prairie Surf site be demolished, the grid restored and dense skyscraper development take its place. Extend the "downtown" part of "downtown." Since that's not going to happen, that site becomes the only real alternative for an arena. Strawberry Fields is too far from hotel and entertainment infrastructure and Cotton Mill land, if it's ever going to be built on, needs to be saved for something more comprehensive than an arena. Maybe it's because I'm currently reading Jane Jacobs but I just find that I increasingly hate all these superblocks. On the other questions, I'm with those that can't possibly see this costing under 1 billion and the Thunder really should pay more than 10 percent but that amount is probably realistic.

[BG918]

In a perfect world where we don't need a new arena, I would prefer that the Prairie Surf site be demolished, the grid restored and dense skyscraper development take its place. Extend the "downtown" part of "downtown." Since that's not going to happen, that site becomes the only real alternative for an arena. Strawberry Fields is too far from hotel and entertainment infrastructure and Cotton Mill land, if it's ever going to be built on, needs to be saved for something more comprehensive than an arena. Maybe it's because I'm currently reading Jane Jacobs but I just find that I increasingly hate all these superblocks. On the other questions, I'm with those that can't possibly see this costing under 1 billion and the Thunder really should pay more than 10 percent but that amount is probably realistic.

We were planning for that outcome 15 years ago when I was in the Urban Design Studio at OU. It makes the most sense for the densest new development in the city next to a future commuter rail hub at Santa Fe Depot, and included restoring the street grid.

Question for those advocating to tear down Prairie Surf and build a new arena, what do you do with the current arena? Use it for minor league sports or tear it down too? I feel like there is a way to extensively renovate Paycom without having to build a new arena.

[chssooner]

We were planning for that outcome 15 years ago when I was in the Urban Design Studio at OU. It makes the most sense for the densest new development in the city next to a future commuter rail hub at Santa Fe Depot, and included restoring the street grid.

Question for those advocating to tear down Prairie Surf and build a new arena, what do you do with the current arena? Use it for minor league sports or tear it down too? I feel like there is a way to extensively renovate Paycom without having to build a new arena.

It is the smallest arena. By far. It can't have the 200 or 300k square feet needed added on to it. The ability to renovate it is running out. And an extensive renovation is putting a band-aid on a throat slash. It is an arena never meant for these kinds of renovations, and was never designed to be for this purpose. So I am vehemently against a renovation.

[Urbanized]

We were planning for that outcome 15 years ago when I was in the Urban Design Studio at OU. It makes the most sense for the densest new development in the city next to a future commuter rail hub at Santa Fe Depot, and included restoring the street grid...

I too love(d) that idea. However, the new arena takes decided priority here, and will bring its own (very) positive change to this superblock and its surroundings.

...Question for those advocating to tear down Prairie Surf and build a new arena, what do you do with the current arena? Use it for minor league sports or tear it down too?...

Tear it down. This site will be prime for redevelopment AND will be controlled by the City.

...I feel like there is a way to extensively renovate Paycom without having to build a new arena.

There isn't, at least in a way that effects the changes needed. Besides the desired new revenue streams required by the modern NBA, there are a number of back-of-house changes needed that the present site simply can't provide. Among them is the loading dock situation. The present loading dock area is nowhere near large enough to properly support simultaneous load-in/out, which unnecessarily limits the number of concerts and other events. The same was true of the old convention center vs the new one.

[BDP]

Chase Center’s entrance looks a lot like BOK Center

Yeah, from the outside, it's not really that interesting. But the finishes on the inside are really nice and it has some cool features throughout.

[PoliSciGuy]

3. Prairie Surf
0. Less than $600m
5 At least 50%, ideally closer to 75%

[Laramie]

.

I. Where should Oklahoma City build a new arena capable of supporting NBA in OKC:

1. Former cotton oil mill property
2. Bob Howard parking lots
3. Prairie Surf Studios (City owned)
4. Strawberry Fields
5. Other possible site

II. How much should our City pay for a new arena thru MAPS and/or Bonds:

1. $601 million - $700 million
2. $701 million - $800 million
3. $901 million - $1,000 billion
4. $1,001 billion - 1,100 billion
5. Other possible amount

III. How much should Thunder ownership Professional Basketball Club LLC pay on a new arena:

1. 10%
2. 15%
3. 20%
4. 25%
5. Other possible amount

.

[BoulderSooner]

Yeah, from the outside, it's not really that interesting. But the finishes on the inside are really nice and it has some cool features throughout.

had a buddy just attend a game there and he said it was pretty fantastic .. hopefully OKC adds some of the design elements to the new thunder stadium

the other interesting idea is somehow creating a NBA version of the new NFL "field suites" which several new teams have added ..

[warreng88]

I remember when MAPS3 was proposed, there was talk of an intermodal hub being in place on the east side of the prairie surf property, across from the santa fe station. Is there any thought that even a small part could be worked into the development of the super block? I am not sure what that would look like and maybe the old arena site would be a better place for something like that, but wanted to bring it up.

Urbanized, do you recall what I am talking about?

[BoulderSooner]

I remember when MAPS3 was proposed, there was talk of an intermodal hub being in place on the east side of the prairie surf property, across from the santa fe station. Is there any thought that even a small part could be worked into the development of the super block? I am not sure what that would look like and maybe the old arena site would be a better place for something like that, but wanted to bring it up.

Urbanized, do you recall what I am talking about?

the Sante Fe station property works as the intermodal hub for the next 35-50 years .. the cost for phase 1-3 was 130 mil or so in 2011 dollars ..

[HangryHippo]

I remember when MAPS3 was proposed, there was talk of an intermodal hub being in place on the east side of the prairie surf property, across from the santa fe station. Is there any thought that even a small part could be worked into the development of the super block? I am not sure what that would look like and maybe the old arena site would be a better place for something like that, but wanted to bring it up.

Urbanized, do you recall what I am talking about?

I do, but I think that ship has sailed.

[Urbanized]

I remember when MAPS3 was proposed, there was talk of an intermodal hub being in place on the east side of the prairie surf property, across from the santa fe station. Is there any thought that even a small part could be worked into the development of the super block? I am not sure what that would look like and maybe the old arena site would be a better place for something like that, but wanted to bring it up.

Urbanized, do you recall what I am talking about?

I do recall, but agree that it's probably a long shot in the near future.

[gopokes88]

I do recall, but agree that it's probably a long shot in the near future.

Holt is very good about building broad coalitions to get things done, if the demand was there wouldn't surprise me if its part of the new arena package.

[catch22]

One really positive thing for OKC is the amount of land the Myriad is on. By long-term leasing or even selling off some of this land to higher-use functions some of the construction cost of the arena could possibly be absorbed. I posted a graphic somewhere in the thread of how large this parcel is with the chase center development overlaid.

[Laramie]

One really positive thing for OKC is the amount of land the Myriad is on. By long-term leasing or even selling off some of this land to higher-use functions some of the construction cost of the arena could possibly be absorbed. I posted a graphic somewhere in the thread of how large this parcel is with the chase center development overlaid.

Recall this being in the Paycom Center formerly Chesapeake Energy Arena link: https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=23863&page=121

Good idea about long-term leasing or selling off some of the excess on the 4 square block old Myriad site.

[king183]

I get the argument about cost of land with the Myriad/Prairie Surf because it seems to be right from my layman's perspective, but the more I think about it, the more I'd like to see the arena go on the old cotton mill site to jump start development there and create a connection with Bricktown, especially if the Dream development gets off the ground. That would also allow the current Paycom and Prairie Surf sites to be redeveloped out of superblocks, potentially with housing that fronts an amazing park and spur development of the Bob Howard parking lot.

The cotton mill is a massive site, so obviously more than the arena would go there, but it's a site that's effective enclosed by the rail line and the interstate, which limits the type of development that could go there. It seems something is needed to jump start that area and if they city is going to pay hundreds of millions to build a new arena, then it seems worthwhile to get that area going with part of that spend.

The obvious counterpoint is that the land cost of the cotton mill could be prohibitively expensive, especially if there is required environmental remediation (did that already occur in an attempt to make sellable?). Perhaps the Thunder ownership could enter into a partnership to help cover costs and create a massive development there that brings in other forms of revenue for the team.