New Downtown Arena

[king183]

the way the state is proposing sports betting It would be 100% tribal .. only the same way our full casinos are currently

there would not be one in the stadium unless state law was massively changed it won't happen in the future

also other then added interest in the sport teams /leagues don't really make money from sports betting (despite what they would like)

Half right/half wrong. It would be 100% tribal *licenses* for online sports betting. The tribes would then "lease" the licenses to various entities, the Thunder being one of them.

[Dob Hooligan]

Non NBA Cities checking Oklahoma City's pulse:

Exploring cities that could have an NBA interest in expansion or relocation.

Enterprise Center, Downtown St. Louis, MO:
(Former names: Kiel Center, Savvis Center, Scottrade Center

Owner: City of St. Louis
Operator: SLB Acquisition Holdings LLC
Broke ground: December 14, 1992[3]
Opened: October 8, 1994
Construction cost: $261 million in 2021 dollars; $150 million renovation. Investment: $411 million
Anchor Tenant: St. Louis Blues, NHL

21. St. Louis, MO-IL MSA 2,809,299

Fortune 500 companies (8)

NBA capacity: 22,000 EST
Supports: Major League Baseball (MLB) Cardinals, Major League Soccer - St. Louis City SC.

NBA in St. Louis: https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/lo...1-b9827880ffae


.

I keep reading this to mean "Arenas the NBA is considering moving the Thunder to".

I'm guessing you mean "Arenas in non-NBA cities"?

On top of that is my belief that St. Louis has almost zero chance of getting another NBA team. and the arena lease gots to be heavily weighted to the Blues benefit, as primary tenant.

Since 1968 the NBA and NFL have both left the St. Louis market twice each.

St. Louis has two solid teams in the Cardinals of MLB, and the Blues of the NHL. The city is well served by keeping and strengthening each of them.

The economic demands of going from a two league city to three, or four, are becoming exponentially more challenging by the day. And I think St. Louis is rightly placed for the foreseeable future.

The four leagues I am referring to are NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL, in descending order of economic cost and impact. MLS is more speculation than real revenue.

[BoulderSooner]

Half right/half wrong. It would be 100% tribal *licenses* for online sports betting. The tribes would then "lease" the licenses to various entities, the Thunder being one of them.

you have a link to that legislation?? because i don't think that is in the bill that passed the OK state house

[king183]

you have a link to that legislation?? because i don't think that is in the bill that passed the OK state house

It’s HB1027. You can find it by doing the basic bill search in the House website. The latest version is the engrossed version. Relevant section is section 3, I believe. The scheme I’m describing has been the central part of this legislation for several weeks. Clay Bennet has been deeply involved, as have the tribes (obviously). One of the sticking points is how many licenses will be issued and which tribes will get them.

[Laramie]

So Sports betting will be linked to the arena. There are so many variables with those "Non NBA cities checking Oklahoma City's pulse." If you take into account those cities like:

Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA 4.66 million (No major professional sports franchise)[/B]
San Diego MSA 3.29 million (MLB)
Tampa FL MSA 3.22 million (NFL, MLB, NHL)
Baltimore MSA 2.84 million (NFL, MLB)
Pittsburgh MSA 2.35 million (NFL, MLB)
St. Louis MSA 2.81 million (MLB, NHL)
Austin MSA 2.35 million (No major professional sports franchise)
Las Vegas 2.29 million (NHL, NFL)
Cincinnati 2.26 million (MLB, NFL)
Kansas City 2.20 million (MLB, NFL)
Nashville 2.01 million (NHL, NFL)
San Jose 1.95 million (NHL)
Virginia Beach-Norfolk 1.80 Million (No major professional sports franchise)
Jacksonville, FL 1.64 (NFL)
Raleigh, NC 1.45 (NHL)

See five potential threats in bold

^

Oklahoma City 1.43 million (NBA)

V

See one potential threat in bold

Richmond, VA 1.32 million (No major professional sports franchise)
Louisville, KY 1.28 million (No major professional sports franchise)

The markets not listed in bold could over saturate the market based on one Major League Sports per 1 million formula.


.

[BoulderSooner]

It’s HB1027. You can find it by doing the basic bill search in the House website. The latest version is the engrossed version. Relevant section is section 3, I believe. The scheme I’m describing has been the central part of this legislation for several weeks. Clay Bennet has been deeply involved, as have the tribes (obviously). One of the sticking points is how many licenses will be issued and which tribes will get them.

i have read it and it doesn't authorize them to out source sports betting to any 3rd party or allow them to operate out side of a casino (except online)

[Swake]

So Sports betting will be linked to the arena. There are so many variables with those "Non NBA cities checking Oklahoma City's pulse." If you take into account those cities like:

Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA 4.66 million (No major professional sports franchise)[/B]
San Diego MSA 3.29 million (MLB)
Tampa FL MSA 3.22 million (NFL, MLB, NHL)
Baltimore MSA 2.84 million (NFL, MLB)
Pittsburgh MSA 2.35 million (NFL, MLB)
St. Louis MSA 2.81 million (MLB, NHL)
Austin MSA 2.35 million (No major professional sports franchise)
Las Vegas 2.29 million (NHL, NFL)
Cincinnati 2.26 million (MLB, NFL)
Kansas City 2.20 million (MLB, NFL)
Nashville 2.01 million (NHL, NFL)
San Jose 1.95 million (NHL)
Virginia Beach-Norfolk 1.80 Million (No major professional sports franchise)
Jacksonville, FL 1.64 (NFL)
Raleigh, NC 1.45 (NHL)

See five potential threats in bold

^

Oklahoma City 1.43 million (NBA)

V

See one potential threat in bold

Richmond, VA 1.32 million (No major professional sports franchise)
Louisville, KY 1.28 million (No major professional sports franchise)

The markets not listed in bold could over saturate the market based on one Major League Sports per 1 million formula.


.

This isn't really accurate, it would be a problem getting an NBA for most of these:

Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA 4.66 million (No major professional sports franchise) -Part of LA Market, 2 NFL, 2 NBA, 2 NHL, 2 MLB
San Diego MSA 3.29 million (MLB) - Has already lost 2 NBA teams
Tampa FL MSA 3.22 million (NFL, MLB, NHL) - Market is saturated for sports
Baltimore MSA 2.84 million (NFL, MLB) - Part of DC/Baltimore market 2 NFL, NHL, NBA, 2 MLB
Pittsburgh MSA 2.35 million (NFL, MLB) - Market is saturated for sports
St. Louis MSA 2.81 million (MLB, NHL) - Has already lost 2 NBA teams
Austin MSA 2.35 million (No major professional sports franchise)
Las Vegas 2.29 million (NHL, NFL)
Cincinnati 2.26 million (MLB, NFL) - Market is saturated for sports
Kansas City 2.20 million (MLB, NFL) - Market is saturated for sports
Nashville 2.01 million (NHL, NFL) - Market is saturated for sports
San Jose 1.95 million (NHL, **MSA also has NFL**) - Part of SF Bay market NFL, NBA, NHL, 2 MLB

And somehow you missed the most likely market, Seattle.

[Laramie]

^

Thanks Swake for the pointing this out. Originally listed Seattle, but in my editing left them out unintentionally.

Seattle and Las Vegas are the front runners for NBA expansion/relocation because they are arena-ready with the Climate Pledge Arena ($1.15 billion 2021 dollars) and T-Mobile Arena ($375 million) not to mention the deep pockets that would make offers to buy the Thunder franchise within an hour of an announced sale. Seattle buying the Thunder and relocating them back to the Emerald City would leave me nauseated for the rest of my life. The Oklahoma City Thunder franchise is worth $1.75 billion in 2023 valuations.

Seattle & Las Vegas are waiting on NBA expansion. NBA is holding out for more expansion money reported to cost $2.5 billion, 7x what The Professional Basketball Club, LLC (Chairman, Clay Bennett) paid for the Supersonics in 2006 before moving the team to OKC.

An expansion fee of $2.5 billion x2 expansion teams split among 30 teams would generate $5 billion, an immediate payment of $166.7 million for each of the 30 NBA franchises.

[king183]

i have read it and it doesn't authorize them to out source sports betting to any 3rd party or allow them to operate out side of a casino (except online)

No one said it “outsourced” sports betting. What I said—and what the legislation authorizes by creating a new gaming method under a new compact, is tribes issuing licenses to 3rd parties to use the applicable betting platform. I’m not going to force understanding onto you; if you can read and comprehend the legislation, you know what I am saying is correct.

Regardless, if the bill passes, you will like see the Thunder receive a license for mobile/in-arena betting. It is not only a major revenue opportunity for them, but in the view of the Thunder ownership, it is a necessary revenue stream.

[Dob Hooligan]

No one said it “outsourced” sports betting. What I said—and what the legislation authorizes by creating a new gaming method under a new compact, is tribes issuing licenses to 3rd parties to use the applicable betting platform. I’m not going to force understanding onto you; if you can read and comprehend the legislation, you know what I am saying is correct.

Regardless, if the bill passes, you will like see the Thunder receive a license for mobile/in-arena betting. It is not only a major revenue opportunity for them, but in the view of the Thunder ownership, it is a necessary revenue stream.

Two big issues with this-
1. Because this is Indian gaming, the bet must be placed in an Indian facility on “tribal grounds”. The plan is to claim the location of the bet processing computer server is on “tribal land”, so that is where the bet is placed. Not on your phone in Paycom Arena. This has not been fully litigated yet. Could be years of court battles before it is resolved.
2. Profit margins on sports betting are very small. Like 2-3%-ish. Sports leagues dream of making big money off sports betting, but no one has a realistic plan yet that I have heard of.

[Dob Hooligan]

^

Thanks Swake for the pointing this out. Originally listed Seattle, but in my editing left them out unintentionally.

Seattle and Las Vegas are the front runners for NBA expansion/relocation because they are arena-ready with the Climate Pledge Arena ($1.15 billion 2021 dollars) and T-Mobile Arena ($375 million) not to mention the deep pockets that would make offers to buy the Thunder franchise within an hour of an announced sale. Seattle buying the Thunder and relocating them back to the Emerald City would leave me nauseated for the rest of my life. The Oklahoma City Thunder franchise is worth $1.75 billion in 2023 valuations.

Seattle & Las Vegas are waiting on NBA expansion. NBA is holding out for more expansion money reported to cost $2.5 billion, 7x what The Professional Basketball Club, LLC (Chairman, Clay Bennett) paid for the Supersonics in 2006 before moving the team to OKC.

An expansion fee of $2.5 billion x2 expansion teams split among 30 teams would generate $5 billion, an immediate payment of $166.7 million for each of the 30 NBA franchises.

There is zero talk about relocating any team, and nobody thinks it will happen. The only talk is about expansion, and the expansion fee is also 10x higher than it was thought to be when the Thunder came to be.

Seattle will get an expansion team because they have the money and public sentiment on their side. Also, arena ownership is set up to accommodate an NBA team.

Las Vegas has the NHL Vegas Golden Knights as the anchor tenant at T-Mobile arena. They control about 50 dates a year, plus signage and other facility revenue streams. Add in all the other events at T-Mobile, and try to find the dates and revenue a $3 billion investment NBA team will need? I still think Louisville is more likely.

That $166 million per team expansion money is gonna equal about 2 years of media rights revenue after the new deals are done. After that it reduces each teams revenue due to slicing up the pie into more pieces. That reduces the chances of any league expansion.

[BG918]

Seattle and Louisville make the most sense for any kind of expansion in the next decade. Not sure how you fit them in though with all divisions currently having 5 teams. Wish Seattle, if they had a team, would take the Thunder’s place in the Northwest and OKC would move to the Southwest with the other regional teams..

[Snowman]

...

That $166 million per team expansion money is gonna equal about 2 years of media rights revenue after the new deals are done. After that it reduces each teams revenue due to slicing up the pie into more pieces. That reduces the chances of any league expansion.

While those numbers may have changed due to newer contracts, this is probably the largest reason the owners have not approved an expansion for around twenty years, and why the Thunder had to be purchased and relocated to get a team in the first place. If the league did not have the quirky size of 29 teams at the time, it would not be surprising if even that expansion would not get passed and it be more like thirty years.

[Snowman]

Seattle and Louisville make the most sense for any kind of expansion in the next decade. Not sure how you fit them in though with all divisions currently having 5 teams. Wish Seattle, if they had a team, would take the Thunder’s place in the Northwest and OKC would move to the Southwest with the other regional teams..

It looks like either eight divisions of four teams (seems more likely as closer to current system) or four divisions of eight teams are the cleanest way to segment thirty two teams. Granted with eight divisions it would make it much harder to get into the playoffs as a non division winner, unless there were some system that poor performing divisions would not be guaranteed a slot in the finals, or playoffs were expanded.

[BoulderSooner]

2. Profit margins on sports betting are very small. Like 2-3%-ish. Sports leagues dream of making big money off sports betting, but no one has a realistic plan yet that I have heard of.

yep lots of leagues tried a money grab in lots of states .... and it didn't work at all because in vegas leagues make almost nothing on sports betting .. . why would they making money elsewhere .... of course they want to make money on it but it doesn't mean it is going to happen ..

leagues make a small amount from certain books for the use of the teams logo's and for some analytical data .. that is about it

[Laramie]

Louisville would be a good addition to the small market cities (Milwaukee, OKC, Memphis, New Orleans & SLC) under 2 million MSA population.

Forgive me for sounding a bit apprehensive about our Thunder. Don't mean to sound the alarm bells or confuse anyone; however, just anxious to hear progress on a new arena before the lease with Paycom Center expires.

Want to commend Mayor Holt and leadership for current on-going discussion with the ownership to get this done. Urbanized, thanks for your faith in a state-of-the-art arena. Ideally, many of us want to begin seeing designs and specs.

Hope a combination of sources could get something built on the PSM site early than 2030.

[BoulderSooner]

Louisville would be a good addition to the small market cities (Milwaukee, OKC, Memphis, New Orleans & SLC) under 2 million MSA population.

Forgive me for sounding a bit apprehensive about our Thunder. Don't mean to sound the alarm bells or confuse anyone; however, just anxious to hear progress on a new arena before the lease with Paycom Center expires.

Want to commend Mayor Holt and leadership for current on-going discussion with the ownership to get this done. Urbanized, thanks for your faith in a state-of-the-art arena. Ideally, many of us want to begin seeing designs and specs.

Hope a combination of sources could get something built on the PSM site early than 2030.

the local ownership of the thunder is not going to relocated the thunder ..

[Laramie]

BTW, the current lease at Paycom Center was extended 3 more years in 2022 until 25-26. Mayor Holt mentioned this in the State of the City address.

[caaokc]

^^^^^^^^
I wasn’t. I’m fortunate enough to know and associate with a lot of people worth knowing, but I don’t have that level of influence.

Are there any other arenas they visited?

[caaokc]

BTW, the current lease at Paycom Center was extended 3 more years in 2022 until 25-26. Mayor Holt mentioned this in the State of the City address.

And hopefully by then the Thunder are really contending again and more people will be encouraged to vote for a new building. Fair or not, some people didn’t love the announcement right after a bad season, even though they don’t know how the nba works, haha!

[caaokc]

BTW, the current lease at Paycom Center was extended 3 more years in 2022 until 25-26. Mayor Holt mentioned this in the State of the City address.

And hopefully by then the Thunder are really contending again and more people will be encouraged to vote for a new building. Fair or not, some people didn’t love the announcement right after a bad season, even though they don’t know how the nba works, haha!

[Laramie]

We have a good ownership group. Valuations of NBA franchises will continue to increase with expansion to 32 teams on the horizon.

If you have been following the Thunder (last 3 years), you probably noticed the improvement of the players and the TEAM PLAY; they are buying into Coach Daigneault's strategy. This is the first time in the 15 years we've supported the Thunder that we have a coach that has the attention, respect and discipline from players.

Notice how attentive the players are during time-outs to Coach Daigneault drawing up the next plays.

Oklahoma City is fortunate to have an NBA franchise. Just have the confidence and feel that our new arena will be among the best in the NBA and tops among small market cities.

[BoulderSooner]

There is zero talk about relocating any team, and nobody thinks it will happen. The only talk is about expansion, and the expansion fee is also 10x higher than it was thought to be when the Thunder came to be.

Seattle will get an expansion team because they have the money and public sentiment on their side. Also, arena ownership is set up to accommodate an NBA team.

Las Vegas has the NHL Vegas Golden Knights as the anchor tenant at T-Mobile arena. They control about 50 dates a year, plus signage and other facility revenue streams. Add in all the other events at T-Mobile, and try to find the dates and revenue a $3 billion investment NBA team will need? I still think Louisville is more likely.

That $166 million per team expansion money is gonna equal about 2 years of media rights revenue after the new deals are done. After that it reduces each teams revenue due to slicing up the pie into more pieces. That reduces the chances of any league expansion.

per about every connect league source expansion will be in seattle and in las vegas (with lebron part of the ownership group) ..

the other thing you are discounting about the expansion fees is that the owners don't have to share that money with the players at all .

the 2 new teams will generate 8 b or so combined ..

[The Shadow]

No one said it “outsourced” sports betting. What I said—and what the legislation authorizes by creating a new gaming method under a new compact, is tribes issuing licenses to 3rd parties to use the applicable betting platform. I’m not going to force understanding onto you; if you can read and comprehend the legislation, you know what I am saying is correct.

Regardless, if the bill passes, you will like see the Thunder receive a license for mobile/in-arena betting. It is not only a major revenue opportunity for them, but in the view of the Thunder ownership, it is a necessary revenue stream.

I'm guessing King183 is smart enough to know who the guy raising the money for the "secret" governor's mansion is employed by.

[Dob Hooligan]

per about every connect league source expansion will be in seattle and in las vegas (with lebron part of the ownership group) ..

the other thing you are discounting about the expansion fees is that the owners don't have to share that money with the players at all .

the 2 new teams will generate 8 b or so combined ..

Looks like you read the same sources I do. Most of whom, IMO, are west coast NBA reporters, agents and consultants.

I know Las Vegas is the sexy pick, but I can't make a city of about 2 million people go from zero "Big 4" leagues to 3 or 4 in 10 years. The local push to get the Athletics is pretty far along. And it has to give the NBA league office reason to be very cautious is determining how deep the local ownership, ticket and luxury box market is for the valley. I think Lebron can be a solid asset to any ownership group.

I haven't read about the expansion teams generating 8 billion dollars. Don't see how they can provide that to the league upfront, and I can't figure out how they bring a large enough amount to the league in shared revenue that makes it work.