OAK (formerly Penn Central)

[BDP]

Few if any privately held companies would agree to have detailed financials added to the public record (as is their right). Many would walk from the negotiation the minute they learned that sharing their financials publicly is a prerequisite.

I'm not sure if public disclosure of detailed financials, like P&Ls and shareholder equity, would be necessary to gain a little more transparency in the process. I get why that would be of concern to a privately held entity, but some sort of public disclosures should at least be expected if an entity is asking for public assistance. In other words, if they want to stay private, stay private.

[BDP]

What we could call TIF? Socialism? Welfare? It’s okay as long as corporate is placed in front of those words?

"Economic Interventionism" if you want to steer clear of some of the more taboo -isms.

[Pete]

Their concern is that another local municipality (or a city within the region) might take what could be learned in public discussion and poach the business for themselves by upping the ante with their own incentive package.

Also, in many cases the companies are privately held. Few if any privately held companies would agree to have detailed financials added to the public record (as is their right). Many would walk from the negotiation the minute they learned that sharing their financials publicly is a prerequisite.

The opposite of this happens. Businesses pit municipalities against each other to raise their incentives (see Costco's threat to build in Edmond, which was never going to happen).

And we are talking about TIF here and I'm not aware of anyone ever asking for TIF and then seriously considering building their development outside of OKC. They have a specific property in mind by the time get to the ask point because they have to submit a project budget. Just look at the long list of developments that get TIF... They are all downtown; it's not like they would be considering Moore.

Private companies don't have to reveal detailed financials. They just submit a budget for their project. Anything they submit for TIF ultimately becomes public information.

[David]

Pretty impressive how fast things are moving on this site.

[Ginkasa]

Seems like that's how things go, at least with big projects with real money and experience behind it. A looooooooong period of hearing about it way too soon here before anything visible actually starts happening. Then another long period of just seeing dirt moving around. Means something to some people with knowledge of such things, but just looks like dirt to me. Then a period of go go go as things go vertical and then another period of seemingly nothing happening when everything is happening in the interior before finally opening.

[Pete]

^

Planning, engineering and site work are always long processes on big projects.

Once something starts to go vertical, visually things start to change on a daily basis.

[Just the facts]

Seems like that's how things go, at least with big projects with real money and experience behind it. A looooooooong period of hearing about it way too soon here before anything visible actually starts happening. Then another long period of just seeing dirt moving around. Means something to some people with knowledge of such things, but just looks like dirt to me. Then a period of go go go as things go vertical and then another period of seemingly nothing happening when everything is happening in the interior before finally opening.

That is because once they start construction the clock on the construction loan starts ticking. Got to get it done so it starts producing income.

[HOT ROD]

Pretty impressive how fast things are moving on this site.

even moreso since the projects approved for TIF haven't even applied for permits let alone submitted final renderings. ......

[Pete]

It's pretty cool to see the crane from my front yard!

[chssooner]

This project was announced years ago. Let's not make it seem like this has been on a speedway. We saw almost 4 years of posts with updates to renderings, but not much else.

I am glad they are moving quickly now!

[Pete]

This project was announced years ago. Let's not make it seem like this has been on a speedway. We saw almost 4 years of posts with updates to renderings, but not much else.

I am glad they are moving quickly now!

To be fair, it wasn't announced 4 years ago.

We found out about it and started posting long before there was anything official.


It takes a damn long time with something as complicated as this (dozens of individual properties of all types and on a large scale) let alone having to deal with approvals for completely relocating a section-line road. They also expanded the footprint and continue to buy houses to the west for perhaps even more development.

[chssooner]

To be fair, it wasn't announced 4 years ago.

We found out about it and started posting long before there was anything official.


It takes a damn long time with something as complicated as this (dozens of individual properties of all types and on a large scale) let alone having to deal with approvals for completely relocating a section-line road. They also expanded the footprint and continue to buy houses to the west for perhaps even more development.

I know. Just saying this to those who compare it to the Dream hotel project. It is different. Especially in this fragile day and age where rates are increasing quickly, and building materials, as well. 3 buildings at 26 stories is harder and more expensive to plan and build than most projects OKC has seen.

[Teo9969]

Also, there was a thing called Covid in the middle that stopped the world.

[Rover]

This project was announced years ago. Let's not make it seem like this has been on a speedway. We saw almost 4 years of posts with updates to renderings, but not much else.

I am glad they are moving quickly now!

Probably hard for people who have never been involved in a development project, let alone anything this complex, to understand, but easy to criticize. Most on here could never orchestrate anything this complicated, but it doesn’t stop them from snarking on those who do.

Pete, given your experience, what’s the chance OKCTalk could sponsor a Saturday seminar that informs your audience on how different types of developments happen, financing, etc. Might be eye opening and help people appreciate why things happen how and when they do. Maybe guest speakers from financiers, developers, city personnel, architects, etc. would volunteer.

[Pete]

^
People know the complexity of projects like this because we start documenting things in the early planning stages and then provide updates every step of the way.

And because most have never lived anywhere else or at least never followed commercial development in detail in other cities, there is this false narrative about how things taking time and often getting scaled back from an initial concept is somehow unique to OKC, or at least much 'worse' here.

It's the internet... People love to criticize anything and everything even when they know better and no matter how much hard information is provided.

It's a million times worse on social media which is why I stopped reading the comments on any OKCTalk post years ago.

[soonerguru]

^^ I have criticized OKC developers for the snail’s pace they move building residential communities. For example, Boulevard Place, which is also getting city largesse.

Then compare that to what is happening in Austin, where you come back a year later and there are multiple new residential high rises going up or nearing completion.

This may not be unique to OKC but it seems like a feature of multiple developments here.

By contrast, OAK is moving very quickly, and is a much more complicated development.

[Pete]

^

There are tons of developments that happen quickly here (Convergence and OKANA are huge, started quickly, and are moving fast).

You simply wouldn't know or care about all the projects in Austin that move very slowly, get scaled back, etc. I assure you there are tons that meet this description in Los Angeles.

A casual observer of OKC (as you are of Austin) would only see the hundreds of projects completed and under construction.


It's a childish, uninformed point of view that demeans the people that constantly complain about it.

[Just the facts]

^^ I have criticized OKC developers for the snail’s pace they move building residential communities. For example, Boulevard Place, which is also getting city largesse.

Then compare that to what is happening in Austin, where you come back a year later and there are multiple new residential high rises going up or nearing completion.

This may not be unique to OKC but it seems like a feature of multiple developments here.

By contrast, OAK is moving very quickly, and is a much more complicated development.

Interesting observation. Population growth is the driving force but you have to question if it is good growth or bad growth. The wife and I visit lots of cities and some cities are building so much it makes your head spin, but what they are building is absolutely unliveable. They don't seem to be building for Humans, but are building for nothing more than skyline status.

Give me the developments in Cincinnati's OTR district over anything being built in Austin. Orlando, Atlanta, etc...

[Oski]

Then compare that to what is happening in Austin, where you come back a year later and there are multiple new residential high rises going up or nearing completion.

Austin and Nashville have the ugliest skyline I've ever seen. I'd rather live in a beautiful city where empty lots gradually filled with thoughtful and aesthetically beautiful buildings than cold and boring glass towers built at lightspeed. Comparing Copenhagen and cities in China, which one attract more tourists. If you like seeing tall towers, it's faster if you relocate to NYC or Chicago than waiting for them to be built here (and not happy with the local developers).

[G.Walker]

I follow development in Tier 2 cities like Austin, Nashville, Salt Lake City, & Charlotte very closely. These cities have various projects that get canceled, scaled back, or delayed that don't make the big commercial development news sites. It goes under the radar because it is outweighed by the other projects that actually do come to fruition. If you really want to follow a city that seems to be doing things right at a good pace, Salt Lake City is a great example.

With that being said, OKC is doing very well against other cities in their category like Memphis, Louisville, Birmingham, Omaha, & Tulsa.

[Ryan]

Austin and Nashville have the ugliest skyline I've ever seen. I'd rather live in a beautiful city where empty lots gradually filled with thoughtful and aesthetically beautiful buildings than cold and boring glass towers built at lightspeed. Comparing Copenhagen and cities in China, which one attract more tourists. If you like seeing tall towers, it's faster if you relocate to NYC or Chicago than waiting for them to be built here (and not happy with the local developers).

This is a new take. Sprawling parking lots over density? I sort of agree that height doesn’t equal presence but Another take is okc has gone 30 years between large scale density developments. 40 years between skyscrapers. Also Austin is in no way an ugly city. If you want a truly hideous wretch of a city look to Amarillo.

[Just the facts]

The difference between an empty lot and a new glass skyscraper is that the ugly glass skyscraper is forever. It can't be undone.

[Oski]

^^ That's so true!

[HangryHippo]

I follow development in Tier 2 cities like Austin, Nashville, Salt Lake City, & Charlotte very closely. These cities have various projects that get canceled, scaled back, or delayed that don't make the big commercial development news sites. It goes under the radar because it is outweighed by the other projects that actually do come to fruition. If you really want to follow a city that seems to be doing things right at a good pace, Salt Lake City is a great example.

With that being said, OKC is doing very well against other cities in their category like Memphis, Louisville, Birmingham, Omaha, & Tulsa.

How do you follow SLC? Do they have an SLCTalk type site?

Omaha has some incredible growth.

[Ryan]

The difference between an empty lot and a new glass skyscraper is that the ugly glass skyscraper is forever. It can't be undone.

Cities with a lot of empty lots tend to stay empty lots. I.E. Wichita. Oklahoma City has more than our fair share. Those lots will stay empty for a long time to come. Especially when it is so cheap to throw up a dollar general or TGIF at NW expressway and Morgan road. It takes density to build a place where people want to be. Austin is definitly winning in that category. Where is this place youÂ’re taking about where skyscrapers canÂ’t be undone? ItÂ’s a building not a diamond. Im in Charleston SC right now there is a building being torn down and rebuilt 2 blocks from the chair I sit in. Empty lots are bad for cities. Its a sign no one wants to be there. YouÂ’re either a growing city or youÂ’re dying. And I mustve Misunderstood. Sparse CBD are a bad sign. Look at Wichita. It sucks so bad. No one wanted to be there 30 years ago. No one wants to be there now. In 30 years guess what?. If youÂ’re remotely interested in these forums youre reading you should want okc to be as different from Wichita as possible. On different planets. Even I really can’t overstate how much Wichita sucks sorry but not really
Skyscrapers get torn down and rebuilt all the time.