Boardwalk at Bricktown / Dream Hotel

[David]

Four 24 and 26 story towers on this site would be a significant increase to the size of the downtown core.

[soonerguru]

I'm actually glad to see it apartment-heavy. Hotels are nice but permanent residents bring an entirely different need for goods and services. Now if we could just get more condos, townhomes, and other for-sale units to help drive prices down.

The developers in this city will never build fast enough for that to happen. It takes years for them to get projects launched and completed. OKC's population growth is easily snatching up available inventory when it comes online.

[G.Walker]

So with the request for TIF, don't they have to reveal the new plans? So we could possibly see them on Thursday?

Or is the meeting on Thursday just for the TIF district, and not awarding the actual TIF for the project?

[sroberts24]

Looking at 4 towers around the same height as Valliance Bank Tower. I like that. Fingers crossed this happens, I have been let down too many times.

[soonerguru]

Looking at 4 towers around the same height as Valliance Bank Tower. I like that. Fingers crossed this happens, I have been let down too many times.

At this point, even if they whittle down to 18-20 floors that still adds significantly to the skyline. It's the density of residential high-rise housing and hotel rooms that I'm excited about.

[Colbafone]

BTW, that article also quotes Randy Hogan as saying this project is a "moonshot" so take all this with a grain of salt.

I feel like this is being glossed over. This makes me feel like this absolutely isn't happening to the capacity that they are aiming for.

[therhett17]

I feel like this is being glossed over. This makes me feel like this absolutely isn't happening to the capacity that they are aiming for.

I'll be surprised if anything close to this ends up getting built... but hopefully I'm wrong

[G.Walker]

^ I disagree, they announced this project almost 3 years ago and now has been modified since then, if they were going to drop it or water it down, I think they would of done it by now.

The TIF approval and how much is actually awarded will determine the outcome of the project.

[chssooner]

BTW, that article also quotes Randy Hogan as saying this project is a "moonshot" so take all this with a grain of salt.

You say "moon shot" but to me, it doesn't mean what you think it does. I think baseball. Moon shot is a term for a massive, massive home run. Not a long shot, like you are thinking here.

I could be wrong. I think the TIF is the last piece of a project that is at the 3 yard line.

Not bashing, just saying my interpretation of his phrasing.

[Colbafone]

You say "moon shot" but to me, it doesn't mean what you think it does. I think baseball. Moon shot is a term for a massive, massive home run. Not a long shot, like you are thinking here.

I could be wrong. I think the TIF is the last piece of a project that is at the 3 yard line.

Not bashing, just saying my interpretation of his phrasing.

Ah, now see, that would make more sense. I definitely took it more like "there's no way this is happening".


But THIS version, I like your interpretation much much better.

[chssooner]

Ah, now see, that would make more sense. I definitely took it more like "there's no way this is happening".


But THIS version, I like your interpretation much much better.

And like I said, I could be wrong. I wasn't meaning to bash anyone or seem too positive.

[Pete]

Really hope this comes off.

They said they hope to break ground early next year so we should know soon if this is moving forward.

In order to get started in that time frame they'll have to submit design and permit applications soon.

[Mississippi Blues]

You say "moon shot" but to me, it doesn't mean what you think it does. I think baseball. Moon shot is a term for a massive, massive home run. Not a long shot, like you are thinking here.

I could be wrong. I think the TIF is the last piece of a project that is at the 3 yard line.

Not bashing, just saying my interpretation of his phrasing.

I like your thinking.

[TheTravellers]

Lofts as in for-purchase condos? There is only 30 in Bricktown proper, they are all the original ones along the canal in the Centennial building.

As for all residential in Bricktown proper, there is only 3 buildings that have residential. The Centennial, The Steelyard, and there is a handful of apartments @ 222 E Main St.

Yeah, for-purchase or rent, condos or apts, basically any residential. Kind of surprised there's not that much residential in Bricktown. Because it costs too much to renovate, no demand, codes, ....?

[onthestrip]

I'll be surprised if anything close to this ends up getting built... but hopefully I'm wrong

Why? With a couple hundred million in TIF being made available, I would be surprised if nothing happened. That said, Im kind of tired of the constant come-with-your-hand-out game plan for most new projects. Its like the more unviable plan you have, the better chance at getting TIF money.

[HOT ROD]

onthestrip, IMO that's the way TIF should be. If you're building a low-rise structure then you probably don't need/shouldn't get TIF since OKC has plenty of land and those type of developments shouldn't be allowed downtown. On the other hand, if you're building a structure higher than 5 floors I think TIF could be appropriate given the added density and "hopefully" improved amenities that it brings. Build a highrise and IMO TIF is necessary due to the rebuild/relocation of utilities/services (given the age of the core and that Urban Renewal tore out what existed previously) and to incentivize high-rise, dense, architectural significant development that OKC's core should have but compared to most peers still is rather lacking.

Again, TIF does not take away from the city, schools, or services; the base still goes out. Its the added value that for a period of time goes to the developer for taking on the risk hopefully benefitting the city overall. After the period, the ad-valorem is established and the schools/county/services see the huge boost (looks like a huge boost comes 2026). If not for TIF we wouldn't have the density, wouldn't have the skyline altering towers, and wouldn't have any ad-valorem to speak of. Now, do we need to alter TIF and revise who gets and what we espect from receiving TIF? YES. And I think it should be iterative as the city reaches milestones of growth, make TIF more difficult/demanding.

[Pete]

onthestrip, IMO that's the way TIF should be. If you're building a low-rise structure then you probably don't need/shouldn't get TIF since OKC has plenty of land and those type of developments shouldn't be allowed downtown. On the other hand, if you're building a structure higher than 5 floors I think TIF could be appropriate given the added density and "hopefully" improved amenities that it brings.

Except the majority of TIF money has been spent and is planned to be spent on buildings 5 levels or less.


There are zero guidelines. It's just basically what the head of Alliance agrees should be funded, then the process starts to help that happen.

There are no height minimums, no density parameters, no affordable housing requirements... It's simply down to what the Alliance chooses to back.

[Bowser214]

I can't wait to see the renderings!

[jdross1982]

Except the majority of TIF money has been spent and is planned to be spent on buildings 5 levels or less.


There are zero guidelines. It's just basically what the head of Alliance agrees should be funded, then the process starts to help that happen.

There are no height minimums, no density parameters, no affordable housing requirements... It's simply down to what the Alliance chooses to back.

Which is why I agree with what he said in the last bit that TIF 100% should be updated to match the change downtown/bricktown has made. We need to see higher density and should be willing to use TIF to match those needs. Increased density means increase amenities (Urban Target, Walgreens, CVS, etc.) Just guessing but lets say there would be 500 residential units with an average of 1.75 per unit would equate to 875 more people living full time. Add the hotel and that is another 300-700 rotating.

[Just the facts]

I'm not arguing for or against TIF but TIF does take away from the City, schools, and services. Projects receiving TIF status still receive all public services despite not paying for them. The cost then falls to all other taxpayers.

[Richard at Remax]

I'm not arguing for or against TIF but TIF does take away from the City, schools, and services. Projects receiving TIF status still receive all public services despite not paying for them. The cost then falls to all other taxpayers.

^this 1000%. That's my biggest beef with the system.

[HOT ROD]

I'm not arguing for or against TIF but TIF does take away from the City, schools, and services. Projects receiving TIF status still receive all public services despite not paying for them. The cost then falls to all other taxpayers.

not totally true. Agencies still receive the base property tax but TIF takes the GAINS in the property that are assessed on the new building(s). So, there is a benchmark set before the development takes place, schools/city/county/library/services still get that amount no matter what. But obviously the assessment would increase with a new building, that difference goes to the development.

I'm generally for TIF but think it needs to be revised (as I've stated earlier) given downtown's gains or once we meet a certain target of critical mass. We may not be there yet but I think we're close. AND, as we learned from Convergence - there hsould be stipulations to claw back TIF if the project isn't delivered to the proposed design the TIF was awarded to. We jsut need to get control of the TIF process now that the city has truly become a major city and stop pretending downtown is still in 'developing nation' status. ..

[Just the facts]

Three 25 story apartment buildings and a hotel require far more public services than a parking lot does over the next 15 years

[chssooner]

not totally true. Agencies still receive the base property tax but TIF takes the GAINS in the property that are assessed on the new building(s). So, there is a benchmark set before the development takes place, schools/city/county/library/services still get that amount no matter what. But obviously the assessment would increase with a new building, that difference goes to the development.

I'm generally for TIF but think it needs to be revised (as I've stated earlier) given downtown's gains or once we meet a certain target of critical mass. We may not be there yet but I think we're close. AND, as we learned from Convergence - there hsould be stipulations to claw back TIF if the project isn't delivered to the proposed design the TIF was awarded to. We jsut need to get control of the TIF process now that the city has truly become a major city and stop pretending downtown is still in 'developing nation' status. ..

Well, considering hardly anyone lives downtown, compared to many other cities our size, it is very much still a "developing nation". Think about how all those towers in Austin get built, incentives and subsidies.

[BoulderSooner]

Well, considering hardly anyone lives downtown, compared to many other cities our size, it is very much still a "developing nation". Think about how all those towers in Austin get built, incentives and subsidies.

this is correct .... OKC still has very very few downtown residents compared to peer cities