Okc says: Bah, Humbug!

[Martin]

so they're hardly biblical, the earliest live event which occurred a full 900 years after the bible was compiled.

if we're going to split hairs, where is christmas itself celebrated in the bible? the name itself wasn't used until 1038, or roughly 300 years after you say the bible was compiled. on your own grounds, you shouldn't be celebrating christmas at all.

-M

[Doug Loudenback]

But what of the employer's right to regulate its employees' conduct at the office? To decide what the office should look like? Do you think the employer should have no say over what someone chooses to decorate their cubicle with so long as that's their "personal space"? (I find that concept ridiculous, it's the employer's space, not the employee's space).

Midtowner, I suppose that you'll get around to responding to what I said, above, but, in the meantime, as to the above, since the City Manager said ...

However, Couch sent another memo to department and division heads Tuesday that sought to clarify his original memo. Tuesday's memo said the original memo only pertained to holiday decorations in public spaces at city office buildings — not decorations in employees' personal workspaces.
* * *
"The initial memo was intended to keep city employees from putting Nativity scenes in the front of government buildings, things like that,” city spokeswoman Kristy Yager said. "It was not intended to keep people from having holiday parties.”

... what you've just said is academic, in the context of the city issue, isn't it?

[Martin]

alright... if i'm going to kick sand around, i might as well take the time to address the original issue.

i'd have to say that i'm on the fence. legally, i agree with midtowner. practically, i agree with doug.

any employer has the right to regulate the behavior of his employees as long as that regulation is lawful and evenly administered. an employer can regulate employee speech, actions, clothing and the type of personal effects in the office space he allows them to use. therefore, an employer can limit the amount of personal crap you put in your work area religious or otherwise and it's not a first amendment issue.

now on the practical side of things, i totally agree with doug and i think what he's stated has been spot-on... so no feeble attempts by me to restate what he's already said so well. is any reasonable person unduly hurt or offended by such displays? i don't think so.

-M

[Doug Loudenback]

As is not uncommon, this thread has splintered from its origin, this one into both the "public" (from whence it began) into the "public" AND "private" sector of employers. Since that is so, it might be useful for clarity's sake if responses would differentiate and identify which frame of reference they are commenting upon -- public, private, both.

On Edit: My post and yours, mmm, came at the same time. But, as for kicking the sand around, that's all we're all doing, I'd suppose! But, this thread does seem to be being taken seriously by most and for the most part comments have been well stated and that makes it a good thread, imo.

[BDP]

I hate clowns - that doesn't mean I have a right to tell my employees they can't have a picture of their kid with a clown from the circus.

Actually, i think you do have that right. In fact, certain items can be considered harassment, especially if they are offensive to protected groups. Employers have the right and even the responsibility to make sure that certain items are not displayed in their offices, be it a workspace or common area. I'm not sure if clowns have been tested at trial as a specific example, but, in general, employers, both private and public, have jurisdiction over your workspace.

[Martin]

as is not uncommon, this thread has splintered from its origin, this one into both the "public" (from whence it began) into the "public" and "private" sector of employers. since that is so, it might be useful for clarity's sake if responses would differentiate and identify which frame of reference they are commenting upon -- public, private, both.

personally, i don't think it matters. whether the employer is 'public' or 'private' it has a right to regulate employee behavior.

the main difference between the two that i see is that 'public' entities (if i'm understanding your differentiation correctly) couldn't and shouldn't include religious displays in an official capacity. that is, a religious display in an employee's personal space is ok, whilst such a display that connotes offical endorsement would be in violation.

-M

[Midtowner]

... what you've just said is academic, in the context of the city issue, isn't it?

Just as academic as the employees' lawsuit

[Doug Loudenback]

personally, i don't think it matters. whether the employer is 'public' or 'private' it has a right to regulate employee behavior.

the main difference between the two that i see is that 'public' entities (if i'm understanding your differentiation correctly) couldn't and shouldn't include religious displays in an official capacity. that is, a religious display in an employee's personal space is ok, whilst such a display that connotes offical endorsement would be in violation.

-M

In the "private" employment arena, since I've eschewed "legal" issues in the public, I'll attempt to be consistent in the "private" as well.

So, in that non-legal context, as a "private" employer, what kind of an a**hole employer would I be if I told my Muslim or Jewish or whatever employee, "Sorry, lady, this office will not tolerate any expression of religion (other than my own, should I chose to have any). Get rid of "xxx" or you're history."

Legal: No comment - not going there.

Personal: What kind of a jerk employer would I be?

[Doug Loudenback]

Just as academic as the employees' lawsuit

That's no answer at all, Midtowner, to my comments, as you know very well. This thread has gone well beyond the lawsuit which is, by now, pointless to discuss.

[Martin]

what kind of a jerk employer would i be?

i think such an employer would be jerk... i wouldn't want to work for such a company nor would i want to run a company with such policies. however, i don't think being a jerk is against the law. it may be bad for business, but it shouldn't be illegal.

-M

[Lauri101]

The nativity scene dates back to Germany in the 1600's. The first live nativity display was in the 1200's in Italy. They are and have been a big part of tradition and rituals for many different denominations within the Christian community.

However, no where does it state this is a part of your right to freedom of religion. Nor does it say you must display one during the holidays.

I don't think a small cross or rosemary or pentegram in your office or cubicle is something people would throw a hissy about. Just about everyone I know has something personal in their "space". But there is a limit. I personally don't want to have to go into someone's office every day...like down the hall from me...and hear Christmas music blaring, 3 different trees decorated, holly and garland every where, stockings hung from the desk corner, and the gawd awful Christmas sweaters that are worn every day. Where do they even find those??? This is work people. An office. Not North Pole City or Winter wonderland. You can Griswold your house up all you want to. Have fun with it. But work does not have to be an extension of your personal display of interests. I can't help but wonder how they would feel if I covered my office walls with naked pics of Jon Bon Jovi! ha. What? It's part of my religion...

OMG - finally, someone else says what I have thought for years!

Of course, I grew up with a god complex anyway - for years, I thought I must be - since all I heard from my dad was "Jesus Christ, Lauri..."

[Doug Loudenback]

i think such an employer would be jerk... i wouldn't want to work for such a company nor would i want to run a company with such policies. however, i don't think being a jerk is against the law. it may be bad for business, but it shouldn't be illegal.

-M

Well, then, in the spirit of the season, what about this? Why don't we all pledge not to be jerks and just enjoy the season, for whatever it may mean to the various people who have different or no religious views, and say, "I'm one of you, a citizen among us all, and I'll enjoy the season with you, even if we differ. Merry Christmas, my friend!"

What a concept!

[Lauri101]

Well, then, in the spirit of the season, what about this? Why don't we all pledge not to be jerks and just enjoy the season, for whatever it may mean to the various people who have different or no religious views, and say, "I'm one of you, a citizen among us all, and I'll enjoy the season with you, even if we differ. Merry Christmas, my friend!"

What a concept!

Well said, Doug. I really have no problem with that concept at all - as long as no one attacks me if I refuse to wear a tacky sweater or ooh and aah over yet another manger scene.

I rather like the idea of "peace on earth and goodwill towards man" - all year round.

[Doug Loudenback]

Well said, Doug. I really have no problem with that concept at all - as long as no one attacks me if I refuse to wear a tacky sweater or ooh and aah over yet another manger scene.

I rather like the idea of "peace on earth and goodwill towards man" - all year round.

Nope! Tacky sweaters and manger scenes on them are obligatory dress! Anything else is verboten!

[Martin]

well, then, in the spirit of the season, what about this? why don't we all pledge not to be jerks and just enjoy the season, for whatever it may mean to the various people who have different or no religious views, and say, "i'm one of you, a citizen among us all, and i'll enjoy the season with you, even if we differ. merry christmas, my friend!"

exactly. i'm down with that. in fact, all of this reminds me of a pretty good article i read earlier this week... 10 things christians and atheists can (and must) agree on

-M

[Doug Loudenback]

exactly. i'm down with that. in fact, all of this reminds me of a pretty good article i read earlier this week... 10 things christians and atheists can (and must) agree on

-M

Ive not looked at the link as yet ... but ... does it leave room for what Gawd wanted? If not, you know that it would need to!

[Martin]

sorry. there's no room in the inn for goat porn. ogts will just have to stay out in the... on second thought... i think there might be a room that just became available. :P

-M

[kmf563]

Ohhhhh that's it!! All clown items are hereby banned from the office! I didn't know I COULD do that! While we are at it...no more tacky christmas sweaters either. Matter of fact - tacky sweaters are banned all year long! This includes anything with glitter, jewels, furr, pictures of your kids, or anything that looks like it was borrowed from Bob Mills.

Oh and Karried - make sure and bring some wine when you come visit my office. We need that for the worship ritual. he he he... the first hymn can be "It's My Life"

[solitude]

exactly. i'm down with that. in fact, all of this reminds me of a pretty good article i read earlier this week... 10 things christians and atheists can (and must) agree on

-M

M, That was really good. Very well written and accepting. I would have never expected it from that site. By the way, your link only had the first 5 with no "next" button. I figured out why and the URL that has all three pages is at:
10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On

Thanks for posting this - that was a good read.

[Midtowner]

kmf, those sound like nice rules, but they're pretty arbitrary. Do you think employers don't have the right to set arbitrary rules for their employees? No one has a right to work somewhere. There are a few rights guaranteed to employees, but as far as I know, self-expression when on the job is not one of those rights.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

***PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT***


While making a joke in poor taste in a previous post within this thread, I may have prompted a few folks to search a particular phrase contained therein.

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, DO NOT ENTER THE WORDS "GOAT PORN" INTO GOOGLE.

Baaaaad juju.

I'm now off to scrub my eyeballs with an SOS pad.

[Lauri101]

***PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT***


While making a joke in poor taste in a previous post within this thread, I may have prompted a few folks to search a particular phrase contained therein.

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, DO NOT ENTER THE WORDS "GOAT PORN" INTO GOOGLE.

Baaaaad juju.

I'm now off to scrub my eyeballs with an SOS pad.

You should see what happens with goat porn and Christmas sweaters together!

[Doug Loudenback]

You should see what happens with goat porn and Christmas sweaters together!

Reingoat porn? Goooood juju?

[kmf563]

kmf, those sound like nice rules, but they're pretty arbitrary. Do you think employers don't have the right to set arbitrary rules for their employees? No one has a right to work somewhere. There are a few rights guaranteed to employees, but as far as I know, self-expression when on the job is not one of those rights.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joanna: You know what, Stan, if you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair, like your pretty boy over there, Brian, why don't you just make the minimum 37 pieces of flair?
Stan, Chotchkie's Manager: Well, I thought I remembered you saying that you wanted to express yourself.
Joanna: Yeah. You know what, yeah, I do. I do want to express myself, okay. And I don't need 37 pieces of flair to do it.


Sorry midtowner...I couldn't help myself. Lighten up. I was kidding. I think the point I am trying to make is this:

Just because you have a right to do something or are legally allowed to do something, doesn't mean you have to or should do it. There is a thing called common sense and common courtesy and if more people would step out of their existentialistic world and use these common things we wouldn't need all of these laws and wasted court time and money. There is also this other thing called "mind your own business" I wish more people would abide by that rule too. It's not a law or a right - but again, should be common. If it's not harming you or someone else - ( i believe you should intrude if a child is lost, being beaten, jumping around in a moving car, or in a domestic violence situation, robbery, murder, needs help...etc. ) If it is just a personal like or dislike, jealousy, or being nosy - like watching someone get pulled over on the interstate or a wreck and you slow down to a turtle speed to watch *cough* *cough* - MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!

[Midtowner]

When you are a public employee, what you do at work is the public's business, not your own business.