Okc says: Bah, Humbug!

[Doug Loudenback]

As reported in the Ada TV station's website at Group sues city for ordering stop to Christmas party :

Group sues city for ordering stop to Christmas party

Associated Press - December 18, 2007 4:55 PM ET

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) - A pair of Oklahoma City employees say city officials are acting like the Grinch this holiday season.

A group that promotes religious freedom filed a lawsuit Monday on behalf of the two city employees, 1 of whom claims he was ordered to discontinue an annual Christmas party that raised money for a needy family.

The lawsuit was filed by the Alliance Defense Fund on behalf of Christopher Spencer, who works for the city's Building Management Division, and Kenneth Buck, a carpenter for the city.

Spencer claims he was ordered not to hold an annual Christmas party held in the division's break room that opens with a prayer. He says he also was told to remove a scripture and a Christian-themed display from his personal office.

Buck says he was told he could not leave a Bible in the break room.

A spokeswoman for the city says they developed a policy that prohibits any religious-themed displays in government buildings, including nativity scenes, crosses or other symbols of clear religious significance.

The city attorney did not return a phone message left by The Associated Press.

Now, I'm not particularly a "religious person," but but but ...

On edit: The Oklahoman picked up on the story, also: NewsOK: City employees sue over 'Anti-Christmas' memo

Two Oklahoma City employees have sued the city over a memo from City Manager Jim Couch that the pair describes as "Anti-Christmas."

The fuss is about whether to allow city employees to display nativity scenes, crosses, angels, cherubs and other religious items in their offices.

Couch’s memo says such religious holiday items shouldn’t be displayed in government offices in order to “maintain neutrality” and avoid promoting one religion over another.

Employees Christopher Spencer and Kenneth Buck disagree. They filed a federal lawsuit Monday accusing Couch and other city employees of violating their First Amendment rights by asking that religious-themed decor not be displayed in their offices.

The pair also claims city officials forced the cancellation of an annual break room Christmas party that included an opening prayer and removal of a Bible from the break room.

This afternoon, a federal judge is being asked to grant a temporary restraining order that would allow the men to continue displaying religious items while at work.

According to the request for the temporary restraining order, the men should be allowed to display the items at work in order to “celebrate Christmas equally with other Oklahoma City employees who are free to adorn to their personal workspace with a Santa Claus or other non-religious symbols and text.”

Couch sent the memo to department heads Nov. 15, as the holiday season began.

The employees are being aided by attorneys with the Alliance Defense Fund, a legal alliance that advocates for religious freedom.

For more on this story, check back with NewsOK.com and pick up a copy of tomorrow’s edition of The Oklahoman.

And, God bless you, everyone!

[Midtowner]

First off, I don't even think the plaintiffs really have standing. There has to be an actual injury, and in this case, these employees can't even say for sure that they'd be disciplined for putting on a display like the kind that's prohibited.

Second, the government as an employer has a lot more power over first amendment rights than it does as a regulator. In this case, these employees are still employees. None of those of us who are non-governmental employees have the right to come into our employers' offices and erect religious displays, so why should these government employees be any different?

[Doug Loudenback]

As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Grinch ... er, Midtowner ... those things are not the point, as "reasoned" as they may be. Any sound principle carried to extremes can become oppressive and stripped of humanity. If these guys want to have a creche in their room and raise money for a needy family, I'm hard pressed to see a good reason they shouldn't be allowed to do so. And, besides that ... there IS a Santa Claus!

[Kerry]

Someone please explain to me when we started losing our constitutional rights when we clocked in for work. There is a Bible in the Supreme Court and they start every morning with a prayer.

[Midtowner]

Someone please explain to me when we started losing our constitutional rights when we clocked in for work. There is a Bible in the Supreme Court and they start every morning with a prayer.

You aren't entitled to have a nazi party rally on the company clock, nor can you hang swastikas all over your work space. Of course your employer can tell you that's not permissible.

You are entitled to do those things on your own time. The Constitution prohibits the government from passing laws forbidding those sorts of things.

The Constitution says "Congress shall make no law," it doesn't say "An employer shall promulgate no rule..."

Employers have different rights when it comes to passing rules. A regular private employer is of course different from the government as an employer, however, the two are very similar.

Bottom line is, I think the new policy is well-reasoned. The city is likely trying to act to head off possible lawsuits by non-Christian employees who might feel discriminated against. The city manager is looking after the bottom line. I don't see how anyone can object to that.

[soonerguru]

I'm sure Bill O'Reilly will use this as an example of "The War on Christmas."

Good luck winning this groundless lawsuit.

Maybe they should go get a job at a megachurch or something.

I wonder how these aggressive Christianists would feel if Muslim workers wanted to erect statues of Mohammed during Ramadan at the office.

[oneforone]

I think we should ban every religous holiday. We can replace every holiday with Whiner's Day. We can all pull out hankie's cry our eyes out and belly ache (lack of a better term) about how life is so unfair.

Seriously... People need to grow up. If you want to have a muslim party fine. Your are entitled to be treated fairly. No one ever said you have the right to never be offeneded or insulted.

If you want to have a Christian party fine. If you have a I belive in nothing party fine. The only time it should be a problem is when a supervisor or employer says or gives the impression that attendance and participation are mandatory. Those who do not want to particpate should be allowed to opt out or go home.

Honestly, I think the government should pull out the old paddles from the grade schools of yesteryear. Everyone who chronically complains about frivalous crap should be given ten swats and told grow up.

Real adults know how to pick their battles and live life with thick skin. If you cannot do that please find a cave somewhere and stay there. A world without whiners would be a world of paradise.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

I don't care about people praying, I don't care about the whole Christmas vs. Xmas vs. Happy Holidays debate, I don't care about the Supreme Court using a bible or In God We Trust on the dollar bill. Non-believers that raise a stink about that stuff give non-believers a bad name. Just like Christians that shove prayers under your keyboard, pamphlets into the bathroom stalls, and bibles in your face give Christians a bad name.

Both sides of this sort of conflict always have a select few people with a chip on their shoulder the size of Nebraska. Everybody else shakes their heads at the dipsh*t parade.

Personally, I'd rather not be accosted with ANY sort of afterlife-or-lack-thereof-related propaganda while I'm at work. It's not the place for it.

[Lauri101]

Bottom line is, I think the new policy is well-reasoned. The city is likely trying to act to head off possible lawsuits by non-Christian employees who might feel discriminated against. The city manager is looking after the bottom line. I don't see how anyone can object to that.

Personally, I'd rather not be accosted with ANY sort of afterlife-or-lack-thereof-related propaganda while I'm at work. It's not the place for it.

I agree with both Midtowner and OGTS. I'm at work to work, not to be proselyted or converted. As a non-believer, I'm tired of being told what a difference jesus will make in my life.

Have your parties, celebrations, covens or whatever on your own time in your own home. Give 8 hours of work for 8 hours of pay - wouldn't that be the ethical/moral thing to do?

[Doug Loudenback]

Update from the Oklahoman: NewsOK: Searching for Christmas spirit<br/><span class='hl2'>Employees file a lawsuit over decking the City Hall</span>

However, Couch sent another memo to department and division heads Tuesday that sought to clarify his original memo. Tuesday's memo said the original memo only pertained to holiday decorations in public spaces at city office buildings — not decorations in employees' personal workspaces.
* * *
"The initial memo was intended to keep city employees from putting Nativity scenes in the front of government buildings, things like that,” city spokeswoman Kristy Yager said. "It was not intended to keep people from having holiday parties.”

With THAT memo and policy, I'm good.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Yeah...I'm fine with people's personal spaces being decorated with whatever they're comfortable with. Telling them that they can't put baby Jesus in their cubicle is like them telling me I can't put goat porn in mine.



What...Like you haven't seen it.

[Kerry]

So the City Hall will be open on Christmas day correct.

[Doug Loudenback]

Yeah...I'm fine with people's personal spaces being decorated with whatever they're comfortable with. Telling them that they can't put baby Jesus in their cubicle is like them telling me I can't put goat porn in mine.

What...Like you haven't seen it.

Whatever floats your boat, Gawd.

[kmf563]

If you do that Oh Gawd...please take pictures! LOL.

I am just tired of the rights whining! Really people. Pick your battles. Putting a baby Jesus in your cubicle isn't going to bring you closer to God nor is it going to change the fact that December 25th is Christmas. You don't have to intrude every inch of the breathing air with holly to remind us of this day.

If you want to get technical, we could always bring up the debate of whether this is really the birthday of Jesus anyway. Facts seem to point to another month entirely.

And if I can work where I do and have to either work Christmas Eve or make it up on the following Saturday....shut up! Quit complaining.

[mecarr]

If you do that Oh Gawd...please take pictures! LOL.

I am just tired of the rights whining! Really people. Pick your battles. Putting a baby Jesus in your cubicle isn't going to bring you closer to God nor is it going to change the fact that December 25th is Christmas. You don't have to intrude every inch of the breathing air with holly to remind us of this day.

If you want to get technical, we could always bring up the debate of whether this is really the birthday of Jesus anyway. Facts seem to point to another month entirely.

And if I can work where I do and have to either work Christmas Eve or make it up on the following Saturday....shut up! Quit complaining.

Well said. I'm getting sick and tired every year about hearing this "War on christmas" BS. When I heard last April about the "war on the easter bunny", the outrage turned into outrageous.

[Major]

Considering Muslims are being given a lot of accomodations in many public buildings across America, does any person have the right to display their own personal religious symbols in their office?

[Midtowner]

Considering Muslims are being given a lot of accomodations in many public buildings across America, does any person have the right to display their own personal religious symbols in their office?

Being allowed time for prayer, which is a primary tenant of one's faith is a whole lot different from displaying nativity scenes -- something not even contemplated in the Bible.

The whole nativity scene thing is likely a 19th or 20th century innovation by individuals seeking to sell nativity scenes.

Displaying such things does not help us to celebrate the holiday or get any closer to Christ.

The whole argument which the plaintiffs here would have propounded is absurd.

[kmf563]

The nativity scene dates back to Germany in the 1600's. The first live nativity display was in the 1200's in Italy. They are and have been a big part of tradition and rituals for many different denominations within the Christian community.

However, no where does it state this is a part of your right to freedom of religion. Nor does it say you must display one during the holidays.

I don't think a small cross or rosemary or pentegram in your office or cubicle is something people would throw a hissy about. Just about everyone I know has something personal in their "space". But there is a limit. I personally don't want to have to go into someone's office every day...like down the hall from me...and hear Christmas music blaring, 3 different trees decorated, holly and garland every where, stockings hung from the desk corner, and the gawd awful Christmas sweaters that are worn every day. Where do they even find those??? This is work people. An office. Not North Pole City or Winter wonderland. You can Griswold your house up all you want to. Have fun with it. But work does not have to be an extension of your personal display of interests. I can't help but wonder how they would feel if I covered my office walls with naked pics of Jon Bon Jovi! ha. What? It's part of my religion...

[Martin]

let's not bring rosemary into this. -M

[kmf563]

let's not bring rosemary into this. -M

Isn't that what some people burn when doing their witchery?? I don't know! haha. Didn't know you had an issue with that. sorry. lol.

[Doug Loudenback]

The topic involved here (displaying religious objects in a worker's workspace in governmental buildings) is one that is charged with both legitimate emotions and legitimate issues. I'll attempt to summarize my point of view.

(1) I do not consider that religious displays BY a governmental entity are either (a) appropriate ... I don't like to get beat over the head by a religious zealot myself ... or (b) legal (unless, perhaps, were EVERY religious group to be permitted equal treatment).

Hence, to me, the litigation which forced Edmond to remove the cross from its city seal was well founded (and, in fact, succeeded) ... and, to me, I regret the gargantuan cross placed near I-35 in Edmond as an intrusion on my personal "space." At least, when a religious evangelist of some stripe comes to my door, I can say, "No thank you" or something less polite but, regretably (I've tried) saying such things to the intruding religious symbol on I-35 does not have a similar effect (it doesn't just go away).

(2) While I'm not personally particularly religious, I respect those who chose to be and their right to be so ... maybe I'll become such a thing again before I croak, who can say. As far as I can tell, no one ... no group, no person ... has a market on "the truth," even though such a thing may actually exist. Time will tell about that, possibly/probably sometime after my last heartbeat.

If someone (in this instance, a city employee or two or several) wants to display a few or several non-intrusive symbols of his/her religious viewpoint in his/her/their personal workspace, I see no reasonable reason to prevent that from happening. It certainly would not be the governmental entity "doing" it, it would be the individual(s) doing so. That doesn't offend my sensibilities in the least, whether I agree with the person's viewpoint or not.

Case in point: Anyone (Midtowner?) care to do a walkabout in the county (probably federal, as well) courthouse into the outer and/or inner offices of the district court judges and have a look around? Even if you didn't do the walkabout, ask yourself, "Would I expect to see Christmas Cards sitting around which (among other things) depict various Christmas scenes, e.g., the nativity, wise men, etc." If you say, "NO, I WOULDN'T EXPECT THAT," you're living on some other planet. And, further, do/would those Christmas Cards offend you? I doubt that very many would answer in the affirmative, but there are some who may.

(3) The "some who may" (be offended) might do well to consider that giving a bit of respect and courtesy, "elbow room" if you like, to those who disagree with you might just be a good reason for the "other" to give you the same courtesy. It's the "golden rule" principle. We don't live in a society where everyone thinks and believes in the same way (nor are we forced to). It would do no harm for us all to show some respect and courtesy to those with whom we disagree.

A creche, or a Christmas card with a creche on it, in a person's workspace ain't gonna cause you, or me, any harm. Might be different for you, Gawd, with your very creative goat porn hypothesis ... but that involves issues other than religion, I'd presume ... but maybe there is a goat porn religion out there I've missed ... wouldn't surprise me.

I've avoided "legal" stuff in this reply for the most part because, frankly, "legal stuff" stinks. We have "laws" because we cannot seem to deport ourselves well enough in our relations with one another without having them. We're all just human beings trying to get along reasonably well with each other ... and a bit less outrage and a bit more tolerance seems to be in order here, all the way around.

And, perhaps those of you in category (3) don't mind me saying to you and all, Merry Christmas! Or ... is that not appropriate speech ... and if not today, will it become so? I don't think that I want to be a part of that picture.

It's Christmas, for "Gawd's" sake, ain't it?

[Karried]

I can't help but wonder how they would feel if I covered my office walls with naked pics of Jon Bon Jovi! ha. What? It's part of my religion...

Where do you work again? I don't know how they'd feel.. but I'll be right over .. hee, hee.

[Martin]

isn't that what some people burn when doing their witchery??

hmmm... never heard that, but that may very well be true. see, i thought you meant rosary. that's what i get for being a smart alec!

-M

[Midtowner]

The nativity scene dates back to Germany in the 1600's. The first live nativity display was in the 1200's in Italy. They are and have been a big part of tradition and rituals for many different denominations within the Christian community.

-- So they're hardly Biblical, the earliest live event which occurred a full 900 years after the Bible was compiled.

However, no where does it state this is a part of your right to freedom of religion. Nor does it say you must display one during the holidays.

I don't think a small cross or rosemary or pentegram in your office or cubicle is something people would throw a hissy about. Just about everyone I know has something personal in their "space". But there is a limit. I personally don't want to have to go into someone's office every day...like down the hall from me...and hear Christmas music blaring, 3 different trees decorated, holly and garland every where, stockings hung from the desk corner, and the gawd awful Christmas sweaters that are worn every day. Where do they even find those??? This is work people. An office. Not North Pole City or Winter wonderland. You can Griswold your house up all you want to. Have fun with it. But work does not have to be an extension of your personal display of interests. I can't help but wonder how they would feel if I covered my office walls with naked pics of Jon Bon Jovi! ha. What? It's part of my religion...

But what of the employer's right to regulate its employees' conduct at the office? To decide what the office should look like? Do you think the employer should have no say over what someone chooses to decorate their cubicle with so long as that's their "personal space"? (I find that concept ridiculous, it's the employer's space, not the employee's space).

[kmf563]

If it is one small item or within tact and reason...no. I don't think the employer should have a say. I hate clowns - that doesn't mean I have a right to tell my employees they can't have a picture of their kid with a clown from the circus. As long as they aren't invading anyone else's space or scaring the crap out of clients or something of that nature, I say it's none of their business.

If they choose to regulate it, I say limit the number of items so it isn't overwhelming or intrusive. When I had a group of employees in cubicles under me they were limited to 3 pictures and 2 personal items. Nothing could be larger than an 8 X 10 picture frame. And if they wanted to listen to music they had to wear headsets. We never had a problem with anyone complaining about anybody else's cubby.