Lexford Park (formerly First Christian Church)

[BoulderSooner]

But the highway coming in pretty much kills any good reason the neighborhood has when it comes to more traffic or density. They lost those arguments with the highway now in place for many many years. I dont see how apartments could be any worse than the actual loud and traffic inducing highway. Any perceived negative effects from an apartment or big box retail would be negligible on nearby residents day to day life.

In Edmond Im talking about 35 between 2nd and 15th where Fox Lake residents, who live very close to an existing highway, walmart, sams, etc fought hotels for all the same dumb reasons most NIMBYs oppose something. Traffic, noise, trash even though the highway already brings all of that.

traffic moving by on 235 is much different then increased traffic on 36th

[shartel_ave]

Not much traffic on 36th after you pass western going east, the only business is Iron Star. I drive on NW36th a lot as I live right by it.

[BDP]

No I get it. But one of the founding principles of this country is property rights, people within reason should have the right to do what they want with their property. A MAPS closing fund is a good idea.

I would just say that the "within reason" part is exactly what we're discussing at this point.

[BDP]

In Edmond Im talking about 35 between 2nd and 15th where Fox Lake residents, who live very close to an existing highway, walmart, sams, etc fought hotels for all the same dumb reasons most NIMBYs oppose something. Traffic, noise, trash even though the highway already brings all of that.

As far as I can tell, that development was done between 1985 and 1995. So, that part of I-35 was there for at least 10+ years before those homes were built.

Funding for the interstate highway system wasn't even passed until 1956. This church was completed that same year. These neighborhoods were built 20 years before that. Walmart wasn't even founded until about 30 years after these neighborhoods were built.

I guess don't understand the idea that the expectations of homeowners in a 90 year old neighborhood that was built decades before any of the stuff you're talking about existed should be the same as homeowners who bought a house built in a different area decades after all of that stuff existed. It's just two totally different situations, imo.

[Pete]

Rezoning is a public process.

It's silly to fault people who own homes for not wanting to participate in that process.

Most times, there are compromises reached through the new owners and neighbors sitting down together. Usually, the Planning Commission rep for the ward involved helps arbitrate.

In Ward 2, that would be Janis Powers who has assisted in similar processes for several developments including OAK and generally does a great job purely as a volunteer.


The process is in place for a reason and it generally works. Decrying people who are merely participating in the public process is the opposite of democracy.

[shartel_ave]

Does the church own all of that land? Jewel box theater and the small outdoor/amphitheater?

If so that is a lot of land and a lot could be done with it but no way a big box retailer would get approved you have to go north of 44 before you see walmart and old navy and whatever else is near that area.

I love that area and all the local businesses in the vicinity from uptown 23rd, Paseo, western ave, and shartel and nw 50th which has a CVS but I don't consider cvs and walgreens as big box retailers.

[bombermwc]

Yes, the church owns the entire plot.

The creek can either be a nice addition to whomever ends up here, or a problem to have to work around.

As i said, the Regional Offices (south east corner) are leaving. So that building will be able to be torn down as well without affecting any tenants.

BUT, if removing the maintenance burden of the sanctuary allows the church to last here, then all of this discussion is moot. Time will tell how that goes. It's very difficult for a church with such low attendance, to financially support the requirements here. But they also don't have enough pressure yet to undersell themselves. With the amount they raise from selling, they can either move themselves to a smaller location and remodel it, they can fund outreach programs, they can gift to a congregation they may decide as a group to merge with. But underselling isn't in anyone's interests.

I see this as a long journey.

[BoulderSooner]

In Ward 2, that would be Janis Powers .

IMHO she is very thoughtful and fair in all of her votes and actions on that committee ..

[BDP]

traffic moving by on 235 is much different then increased traffic on 36th

This is a totally valid distinction.

And since this ultimately has a political element, I think that will be a big factor. It still may not be politically tenable to use government intervention in OKC to protect architecturally significant, but financial unproven, commercial assets from being town down, but I think most will at least be sympathetic to homeowners who are resisting the prospect of a development having the potential to increase traffic on their street 3, 4, maybe 5 times what it currently is.

Even with the Fox Lake comparison, those developments on I-35 increase(d) traffic on the I-35 service road, not in the Fox Lake development directly. Anything built here will be IN the neighborhood, sharing the same streets. There are houses that are literally across the street from it, sharing the same access to their home with whatever is there.

[Pete]

[Plutonic Panda]

Sickening

[Oski]

Every city needs a competent chief architect, who has great vision, if we leave everything in the hands of developers, it's a gamble, many developers are just builders.

[onthestrip]

Every city needs a competent chief architect, who has great vision, if we leave everything in the hands of developers, it's a gamble, many developers are just builders.

Youre putting a little too much faith in an architect. Plenty of examples of architect driven developments that have been a flop or simply arent functional.

[Oski]

Youre putting a little too much faith in an architect. Plenty of examples of architect driven developments that have been a flop or simply arent functional.

Hence I mentioned the word "competent," those people aren't easy to find, especially in OKC.

[shartel_ave]

I. M. Pei did a great job haha

[ABryant]

I assume Oklahoma and Oklahoma City have very competent architects. We do have universities that teach those kinds of things.

[Oski]

I. M. Pei did a great job haha

Great, now we know we should pick someone who is even better than Pei.

[Paseofreak]

I. M. Pei did a great job haha

Pei did a great job. Scholarly work evaluating demos with a plan to replace. After he was done, city officials ran with demo decisions without good evaluation or anything to replace demos. Hate that Pei is saddled with this myth.

[TheTravellers]

Pei did a great job. Scholarly work evaluating demos with a plan to replace. After he was done, city officials ran with demo decisions without good evaluation or anything to replace demos. Hate that Pei is saddled with this myth.

[bombermwc]

Pei did a great job. Scholarly work evaluating demos with a plan to replace. After he was done, city officials ran with demo decisions without good evaluation or anything to replace demos. Hate that Pei is saddled with this myth.

He convinced the city that we needed to get caught up in this urban renewal process that involved demo on the large scale. I'm still pissed that the Biltmore is gone. Better planning could have put the Myriad Gardens in a different arrangement. Half of his plans fell through and we were left with a shell of what was promised. A "great job" is not what a lot of people feel he did. A lot of us feel he contributed to lost history that cannot be replaced. If we all thought the way he did, then all of Bricktown should have been dozed over in the late 80's and we should have just called it "done".

[Oski]

A lot of us feel he contributed to lost history that cannot be replaced.

With the demolition of the church, I'm pretty convinced that we care very little about history nowadays, so it's understandable that history wasn't a huge deal back in the days, let knock them all down and build 20 story glass towers.

We had plenty of time to find a solution for the church (or even the Gold Dome) but didn't do much (I know some people put up a fight, but the rest of us were just sat, talked, and waited for someone to do something). The city has no vision, how about acquiring that land and turn it into a urban park (now or later), every MAPS, there's tons of money set aside for parks, throw 10 mil in here, or how about the mayor, city councilmen, with all the connections, could try to ask big donors to chip in some money, or even run a campaign to ask for public contribution, no they don't have a clue. The old school admin building on Klein will come down soon, not many people care or try to do something right now, then the day it comes down, people will jump out of their couches and start screaming, AGAIN.

[TheTravellers]

He convinced the city that we needed to get caught up in this urban renewal process that involved demo on the large scale. I'm still pissed that the Biltmore is gone. Better planning could have put the Myriad Gardens in a different arrangement. Half of his plans fell through and we were left with a shell of what was promised. A "great job" is not what a lot of people feel he did. A lot of us feel he contributed to lost history that cannot be replaced. If we all thought the way he did, then all of Bricktown should have been dozed over in the late 80's and we should have just called it "done".

Did Pei have complete autonomy and governance over those who were supposed to implement his plans (aka OKC)? Pretty sure he didn't control the city, so he can't really be responsible for OKC doing what they've done ever since - tear sh!t down and don't build anything decent (or at all) in its place. OKC is pretty much wholly responsible for the damage done, since if they would've followed through with his plan it would've been a whole different downtown (maybe not as historical, but wouldn't have had empty lots for decades and a dead downtown).

[Rover]

To blame Pei is absurd and lacks understanding and context. As one of the world’s greatest architects and developer he was hired to do a job and did it. Failure to execute is all onOKc officials and the changes in federal government resources and plans of urban renewal.

I once was at a family gathering attended by an in-law who was an nfl QB at the time. He was playing with the kids in the backyard as they all wanted to catch passes from him. Guess who the kids blamed when they didn’t catch the pass. lol. That’s what the okc kids do… blame Pei for their clumsiness and lack of ability to execute the simplest of plans.

[Plutonic Panda]

Pei did a great job. Scholarly work evaluating demos with a plan to replace. After he was done, city officials ran with demo decisions without good evaluation or anything to replace demos. Hate that Pei is saddled with this myth.

I agree and it’s not fair to say he is responsible for anything that happened in OKC given the city half assedly implemented his plan. Either they should have kept all the historic buildings or went all the way. If you looked at models of what they had planned for downtown OKC it would have been incredible if they went through with it including the proposed monorail system.

Instead they chose the worst possible decision and here we are. Even in the last decade we’ve torn out so many historic buildings in the C2S in the name of urban renewal, mid century icons like the Founders Building for a gas station, tearing out buildings like the Harvester or Film Exchange for a convention center that could have been built elsewhere or a park that could have been built around the buildings, tearing down all the buildings they did for the boring glass box next to the Devon center, or an internationally renowned piece of architecture for a basketball court. There’s more but you get the point. OKC just doesn’t get it. The city council just shows time and time again they don’t care by their inaction. So Pei isn’t to blame.

[shartel_ave]

I live very close to this area and I’m glad to see this building go it was never going to be renovated into anything and keeping a church building around because it was built a long time ago is stupid despite the architecture

Architects can create designs from any period in time and that gold dome needs to go next nobody wants to invest in that dumpster fire