Lexford Park (formerly First Christian Church)

[Teo9969]

Isn't the density going to be decided ultimately by the sale price of the land? If the plot sells for $12M vs. $36M, you're going to get 2 very different developments.

I guess the question are the buyers going to care about Crown Heights NIMBYs? I would assume they would ultimately win any fight for rezoning. It's off a section line road with commercial at various points and I find it hard to believe investors are just going to let that land go for cheap out of fear of NIMBYs?

So I guess that's the question...now that the hard part has been done, how much is this thing going to sell for?

[soonerguru]

Isn't the density going to be decided ultimately by the sale price of the land? If the plot sells for $12M vs. $36M, you're going to get 2 very different developments.

I guess the question are the buyers going to care about Crown Heights NIMBYs? I would assume they would ultimately win any fight for rezoning. It's off a section line road with commercial at various points and I find it hard to believe investors are just going to let that land go for cheap out of fear of NIMBYs?

So I guess that's the question...now that the hard part has been done, how much is this thing going to sell for?

Housing would be OK. Mixed use housing / commercial would be better. Any bets on this just becoming an ONCUE or weird strip shopping center with a giant parking lot? Sorry if that sounds cynical. Honestly, the snarky talk about NIMBYs seems wildly inappropriate given what is likely to land on this property, and what has happened here. This isn't going to be an example of upper-middle-class Edmond folks upset about a multi-family housing complex bringing in "differently compensated" people.

[bombermwc]

To add more confusion to this, the whole plot apparently isn't going.

The church is still meeting in the youth/gym building, and they just put in a new AC unit. I dont think they would have paid for that if they were moving out any time soon.
Apparently the education building is also still being used.

The Disciples of Christ Regional Office is on the SE corner of the land. They are actually moving and downsizing as they move most of their staff to work remotely.

So that totally muds up the outlook on the timelines of what's going on.

[David]

At some point, hopefully, the market would dictate that it blends well with the neighborhood. But I don't think we even know who is interested in redeveloping it.

Also, "blends well" is very subjective. Does that mean "looks as close to the the 90 year old structures that surround it" or "a modern design that approaches detail to the same level of the older structures". Sometimes going for the former ends up being a bigger miss than going for the latter.

There are some newer builds in the area, specifically two just across 36th. They went for a modern deco look, I guess. If there's a commercial element to this, the developer would at least have precedent using those new builds against any resistance the neighborhoods might present.

If the developer wants to rezone it, they probably need to be ready for a protracted fight. I don't know if that would ultimately prevent a bad development, but if I were an investor, I think I would look for path of least resistance and work with the neighborhoods in order to start generating returns sooner rather than later.

Those new buildings right across the street are part of why I'd like to see a mixed use development, it would be a fine area for a nice project as long as the zoning issues can be managed.

Housing would be OK. Mixed use housing / commercial would be better. Any bets on this just becoming an ONCUE or weird strip shopping center with a giant parking lot? Sorry if that sounds cynical. Honestly, the snarky talk about NIMBYs seems wildly inappropriate given what is likely to land on this property, and what has happened here. This isn't going to be an example of upper-middle-class Edmond folks upset about a multi-family housing complex bringing in "differently compensated" people.

I suspect there's very little chance of an OnCue or a strip mall. The surrounding neighborhood may not be at fancy Edmond prices but it is still a rather well to do area, they'll be out in force for any rezoning regardless but there's zero chance they wouldn't raise hell about a project of that sort.

[Laramie]

Remember seeing a picture of that building when I attended St. Martin Deporres school in the world book encyclopedia as Oklahoma City 'Church of Tomorrow' and recall asking Father Francis X Schillo (our pastor & coach) did he know where the church was.

So, one day after we left Sacred Heart Gymnasium after beating St. James, Father Schillo (in a good mode) loaded us in his Station Wagon and we headed to charcoal oven hamburgers, then to Bishop McGuiness High School to scout our next opponent (John Carroll), on the way we stopped by the 'impressive' First Christian Church and it looked every bit of what I saw in World Book.

Wow, shouted a teammate, we're on the rich side of town, yep replied Father Schillo, and when we kick their butts or they kick ours, show good sportsmanship and remember a lesson well learned.

Well, the next week, we lost in overtime against JC and Father Schillo (in terrible mode) had some choice words for the two officials who didn't want to leave the gym until they were sure Father Schillo had left the premises (LOL).

All I can say is RIP Father Schillo, you were our father figure and 'one hell of a priest.' The First Christian Church was my memory of the 'classes of people' in OKC. It saddens me to see this church demolished because it took with it a chapter of my memories...

[mugofbeer]

Remember seeing a picture of that building when I attended St. Martin Deporres school in the world book encyclopedia as Oklahoma City 'Church of Tomorrow' and recall asking Father Francis X Schillo (our pastor & coach) did he know where the church was.

So, one day after we left Sacred Heart Gymnasium after beating St. James, Father Schillo (in a good mode) loaded us in his Station Wagon and we headed to charcoal oven hamburgers, then to Bishop McGuiness High School to scout our next opponent (John Carroll), on the way we stopped by the 'impressive' First Christian Church and it looked every bit of what I saw in World Book.

Wow, shouted a teammate, we're on the rich side of town, yep replied Father Schillo, and when we kick their butts or they kick ours, show good sportsmanship and remember a lesson well learned.

Well, the next week, we lost in overtime against JC and Father Schillo (in terrible mode) had some choice words for the two officials who didn't want to leave the gym until they were sure Father Schillo had left the premises (LOL).

All I can say is RIP Father Schillo, you were our father figure and 'one hell of a priest.' The First Christian Church was my memory of the 'classes of people' in OKC. It saddens me to see this church demolished because it took a chapter of my memories...

This is almost like my childhood home being torn down.

[David]

From Marty's coverage of today's City Council meeting: https://twitter.com/OKC_SPAN/status/1574791213202423810

Midwest Wrecking applied for a permit on Friday. The department flagged it, knowing it was sensitive. They consulted with legal staff throughout the weekend, and there was no legal impediment for them to approve the permit, which they did Monday morning.

This is a sad thing, losing a historic building, but I’m just not sure anything could have been done without it already having been designated as a landmark. Unfortunately that never happened. (Also it doesn’t prevent demolition, just lengthens the process.)

Cooper didn’t hear about this on Friday. City Manager Craig Freeman called him over the weekend. They spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to stop it.

[TheTravellers]

https://www.thelostogle.com/2022/09/...e-an-on-cue-2/

[Pete]

That property has been for sale and in peril for years.

The time to do something was years ago, not after a demolition permit had been filed and there was zero recourse. Ed Shadid was still representing Ward 2 when this started to play out.

They could have passed motions to include that property in a design review overlay five years ago. Now all this hand-wringing is nothing but political posturing.

[TheTravellers]

From Marty's coverage of today's City Council meeting: https://twitter.com/OKC_SPAN/status/1574791213202423810

They should've spent more time in the past however-many years trying to figure out how to stop it instead of just a day or two before the demo. And yes, I know they've done "things" about it, but never anything productive, as is evidenced by the pile of rubble (or cleared lot by now, probably).

[BDP]

Housing would be OK. Mixed use housing / commercial would be better. Any bets on this just becoming an ONCUE or weird strip shopping center with a giant parking lot? Sorry if that sounds cynical. Honestly, the snarky talk about NIMBYs seems wildly inappropriate given what is likely to land on this property, and what has happened here.

And sometime NIMBY's can be right. Zoning exists for a reason. I can guarantee you everyone has a line that, if crossed, they would become a NIMBY. With few exceptions every homeowner is going to have some thoughts on what is built next door to them.

And, as far as I know, there isn't any publicly available proposal at this point, so there is nothing for anyone to take a NIMBY stance against. I'm pretty sure most in the area wanted for the mid-century assets to remain, just like most of us here. The church was an icon that I imagine most living there appreciated. I don't think anyone who appreciates the city and architecture in general would have wanted to trade them for an OnCue, so if that's what gets proposed, I'm not going to fault anyone for resisting it, let alone someone who owns a home next to it.

This isn't going to be an example of upper-middle-class Edmond folks upset about a multi-family housing complex bringing in "differently compensated" people.

That would seem out of character, just based on the fact that many people in the historic neighborhoods have been living there for decades and it's an area that has largely been a mix of "differently compensated" people and still is to an extent. It's definitely changed as the inner core has attracted more buyers all over the place, but the price per square foot for some Crown Heights and Edgemere houses is still very different than houses just a few blocks away in every direction. Seems to me if they wanted to live in a homogenized area of town, they chose wrong. But I would imagine that none of them were looking to live next to an OnCue.

[BDP]

That property has been for sale and in peril for years.

The time to do something was years ago, not after a demolition permit had been filed and there was zero recourse. Ed Shadid was still representing Ward 2 when this started to play out.

They could have passed motions to include that property in a design review overlay five years ago. Now all this hand-wringing is nothing but political posturing.

This is so true. And the hand-wringing is especially cringey, since this basically was the same script used just about every time an OKC landmark is demolished. And after all the successful repurposing of historic assets over the last couple of decades that brought life and commerce back to the inner city districts, they still perceive it as politically untenable to use city government to try and protect more of them.

Do any of the overlays stop demolition? It's my impression that they have more influence on what is built, but not much sway over what is torn down.

[Pete]

Do any of the overlays stop demolishing? It's my impression that they have more influence on what is built, but not much sway over what is torn down.

Yes.

If a property is in design review distract, they can't do anything without committee approval, which requires public notice, hearings and votes.

This is why the Gold Dome wasn't pulled down at 8 AM on the same day the permit was filed. The owner at that time (David Box) attempted to do just that and was stopped because a demo permit couldn't be issued without design review approval, which was not given.

[BDP]

Yes.

If a property is in design review distract, they can't do anything without committee approval, which requires public notice, hearings and votes.

This is why the Gold Dome wasn't pulled down at 8 AM on the same day the permit was filed. The owner at that time (David Box) attempted to do just that and was stopped because a demo permit couldn't be issued without design review approval, which was not given.

Thanks. I guess it just seems so easy to tear things down in general that I assumed design review didn't have much to say about that part.

In the Gold Dome example, did Box even have replacement proposal at the time.

[Pete]

In the Gold Dome example, did Box even have replacement proposal at the time.

Nope. IIRC, he tried to get the demo permit, was notified he'd have to go through the process with the Urban Design Committee, then dropped the whole thing.

He then tried to pull a ruse with TEEMCO (said he sold it to them when he really didn't) and when that fell apart, sold to the current owner.

[onthestrip]

And sometime NIMBY's can be right. Zoning exists for a reason. I can guarantee you everyone has a line that, if crossed, they would become a NIMBY. With few exceptions every homeowner is going to have some thoughts on what is built next door to them.

And, as far as I know, there isn't any publicly available proposal at this point, so there is nothing for anyone to take a NIMBY stance against. I'm pretty sure most in the area wanted for the mid-century assets to remain, just like most of us here. The church was an icon that I imagine most living there appreciated. I don't think anyone who appreciates the city and architecture in general would have wanted to trade them for an OnCue, so if that's what gets proposed, I'm not going to fault anyone for resisting it, let alone someone who owns a home next to it.



That would seem out of character, just based on the fact that many people in the historic neighborhoods have been living there for decades and it's an area that has largely been a mix of "differently compensated" people and still is to an extent. It's definitely changed as the inner core has attracted more buyers all over the place, but the price per square foot for some Crown Heights and Edgemere houses is still very different than houses just a few blocks away in every direction. Seems to me if they wanted to live in a homogenized area of town, they chose wrong. But I would imagine that none of them were looking to live next to an OnCue.

Sure, but this is on a corner of a state highway and a section line road and you should expect that some density or busy commercial use might happen here. Because of this location, any NIMBY fighting these types of uses is just foolish and/or selfish and their opinions should not be given much weight in the matter, imo. Similar to Edmondites living 500 yards from I35 but get upset when someone wants to build a hotel on the 35 service road.

[Bill Robertson]

To add more confusion to this, the whole plot apparently isn't going.

The church is still meeting in the youth/gym building, and they just put in a new AC unit. I dont think they would have paid for that if they were moving out any time soon.
Apparently the education building is also still being used.

The Disciples of Christ Regional Office is on the SE corner of the land. They are actually moving and downsizing as they move most of their staff to work remotely.

So that totally muds up the outlook on the timelines of what's going on.

I'm not sure the investment in an A/C unit would keep a potential development of the property from happening. It wasn't very long ago that all kinds of cranes and scaffolding were around the big egg and it was repainted and the round skylights either refurbished or replaced. That had to cost a small fortune and now it's in a landfill.

[gopokes88]

David Box was the same attorney involved with the sneak destruction of Citizens Bank on North May. It was handled the same way. NOTHING has been built there. It is just a scraped lot. I hate the way this city operates sometimes. So much of our taxpayer money invested to improve it from the armpit it was for decades, yet developers place little value in iconic architecture. And people in high places in OKC must hate trees because it is one of the most barren places in the USA. I am numb to this news in a way because it is SOP in OKC.

I think a reasonable compromise/starting point is a demo permit contingent upon sale and funding of the new development.

Some old buildings can be saved, some can't. There is a balancing act for private property rights and public good.

The easiest thing to do would be to revise the permitting system to say "yes" once the sale occurs and funding is in place for the next development.

[Oski]

There should be a MAPS project to acquire, renovate, and find good use for iconic buildings. Oops, we've already knocked down most of them, so ... never mind.

[BDP]

Sure, but this is on a corner of a state highway and a section line road and you should expect that some density or busy commercial use might happen here.

Nah, that's silly. The church had been there since 1956. So that location was developed 66 years ago and not for "some density or busy commercial use". To suggest that anyone should have just expected it would one day be torn down for a gas station or some other "busy commercial use", and therefore shouldn't have bought a house there is just to ignore history and to place some weird expectation of clairvoyance on people who bought a house there in, say, the 80s. That part of Broadway wasn't even considered Interstate until 20 years after the church was built and that section of I-235 wasn't there until 1986. Most of those houses were built 50 years before that.

Because of this location, any NIMBY fighting these types of uses is just foolish and/or selfish and their opinions should not be given much weight in the matter, imo. Similar to Edmondites living 500 yards from I35 but get upset when someone wants to build a hotel on the 35 service road.

I'm not sure to which Edmonites or hotel(s) you are referring. So, can I ask when those houses were built relative to when that part of I-35 was completed in that area (if it helps I-35, was completed in OK in 1971, when Edmond had a population of about 16k) and what was torn down and rezoned to make way for the hotel(s)?

[BDP]

I think a reasonable compromise/starting point is a demo permit contingent upon sale and funding of the new development.

Some old buildings can be saved, some can't.

More accurately, they all can be saved, just some require significantly more resources and work to do it.

Centuries old buildings have been saved at a cost exponentially higher than it would cost to save a 60 year old church. But that's more a product of the value a community places on its history and / or the viability of the market.

[gopokes88]

More accurately, they all can be saved, just some require significantly more resources and work to do it.

Centuries old buildings have been saved at a cost exponentially higher than it would cost to save a 60 year old church. But that's more a product of the value a community places on its history and / or the viability of the market.

No I get it. But one of the founding principles of this country is property rights, people within reason should have the right to do what they want with their property. A MAPS closing fund is a good idea.

[Pete]

The city has shown zero interest or even openness to the idea of acquiring properties outside of downtown and blighted area of NE OKC.

It's never been brought up by anyone that I know of.


As I said, all that has to be done is to extend design overlays. They recently did this for the Lincoln corridor. Almost all of Classen Boulevard, for example, is outside any design review.

Design overlays require approval of a committee (and the related public process) for any significant exterior change, including demolition. It's a simple solution.

[bombermwc]

Just to level set, the property is still owned by the church. They have yet to sell it.

The decision to tear the building down was theirs because of maintenance costs. If someone had such a strong opinion about it, they've have had several (VERY VOCAL) years to do something about it. If someone is complaining now, it's years late and falling on deaf ears.

Given the situation, it's entirely possible that the church stays there for much longer now, and that it just looks different than it once did....ie, no formal sanctuary.

If someone wants it, it's now because they want a large plot of land and will have to make the right offer. Anything historic is really gone now.

[onthestrip]

Nah, that's silly. The church had been there since 1956. So that location was developed 66 years ago and not for "some density or busy commercial use". To suggest that anyone should have just expected it would one day be torn down for a gas station or some other "busy commercial use", and therefore shouldn't have bought a house there is just to ignore history and to place some weird expectation of clairvoyance on people who bought a house there in, say, the 80s. That part of Broadway wasn't even considered Interstate until 20 years after the church was built and that section of I-235 wasn't there until 1986. Most of those houses were built 50 years before that.



I'm not sure to which Edmonites or hotel(s) you are referring. So, can I ask when those houses were built relative to when that part of I-35 was completed in that area (if it helps I-35, was completed in OK in 1971, when Edmond had a population of about 16k) and what was torn down and rezoned to make way for the hotel(s)?

But the highway coming in pretty much kills any good reason the neighborhood has when it comes to more traffic or density. They lost those arguments with the highway now in place for many many years. I dont see how apartments could be any worse than the actual loud and traffic inducing highway. Any perceived negative effects from an apartment or big box retail would be negligible on nearby residents day to day life.

In Edmond Im talking about 35 between 2nd and 15th where Fox Lake residents, who live very close to an existing highway, walmart, sams, etc fought hotels for all the same dumb reasons most NIMBYs oppose something. Traffic, noise, trash even though the highway already brings all of that.