Views on Baptism?

[Patrick]

The Church of Christ believes that water baptism "saves" you. In other words, the water literally washes your sins away, unlike many Protestant denominations where it's just viewed as symbolic. What are your views on this?

[Midtowner]

It's a sacrament.

As for who is saved and who is not, God is the only one that has the answers there.

I'm Catholic by the way.

[Patrick]

I concur. Baptism doesn't save you.

As a Baptist, I look at it more as a symbol that you've received Christ as your Lord and Savior. Afterall, going into the water shows that you are "buried" with Christ, coming up from the water shows that you're "raised" to walk in newness of life. It's more symbolic of the sacrifice of Christ and the gift you've received from Christ in accepting salvation.

[Keith]

with what Patrick says about it, mainly because that is what the Bible says. Baptism is a representation of our salvation through Jesus Christ.

"As for who is saved and who is not, God is the only one that has the answers there."

Actually, I disagree with that. Once you have seriously accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, you know for sure that you are saved. You and God are the only ones that really know that answer.

I'm Christian, by the way , and proud of it.

[Midtowner]

with what Patrick says about it, mainly because that is what the Bible says. Baptism is a representation of our salvation through Jesus Christ.

"As for who is saved and who is not, God is the only one that has the answers there."

Actually, I disagree with that. Once you have seriously accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, you know for sure that you are saved. You and God are the only ones that really know that answer.

I'm Christian, by the way , and proud of it.

Feel free to disagree.

There are over 5,000 versions of Christianity in the United States alone. To presume that you know what you're absolutely right about anything when it comes to religion is pretty arrogant.

[Floating_adrift]

Mark 16:16 is one of the verses that can outline ones belief based totally on interpretation.

[Midtowner]

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,' but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble." James 2:14-19

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matthew 25:31-46

"Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation. " John 5:28-29

"There was a scholar of the law who stood up to test him and said, 'Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?' Jesus said to him, 'What is written in the law? How do you read it?' He said in reply, 'You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.' He replied to him, 'You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.'" Luke 10:25-28

The questions was what must I "do", not what must I "believe". And Jesus answered you must "do", not you must "believe".

"For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified." Romans 2:13

"By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God." Romans 2:5-11

There are many more explanations in the Catechism, but those probably wouldn't be acceptable for your purposes.

[Keith]

"To presume that you know what you're absolutely right about anything when it comes to religion is pretty arrogant."

No, I don't presume that I am always right about "religion." I do know what the Bible says about Christianity and baptism, which is what I base my answers from, so if you want to call it arrogance, that's up to you.

[Floating_adrift]

let's not get off topic and leave the sarcasm at the door please :P

Faith and works wasn't on topic but brings up what I always find an interesting subject, which is how people can interpret the same exact book in so many different ways. The scripture that Midtowner brings up seems to say point blank that works is just as/or more important as faith, yet I've had preachers tell me that you don't need works to be saved. very confusing

???

(edit- oops, i got off topic)

[Floating_adrift]

Come on people, don't stop here, we were just getting to some of the more interesting points about religion!

[Midtowner]

"To presume that you know what you're absolutely right about anything when it comes to religion is pretty arrogant."

No, I don't presume that I am always right about "religion." I do know what the Bible says about Christianity and baptism, which is what I base my answers from, so if you want to call it arrogance, that's up to you.

I just posted several passages that said otherwise. To believe one and not the other is silly.

I actually believe (and this is a stance of many Catholics) that the Bible is not a perfect work. It was written by men and has been changed and rewritten so many times throughout history that it is a shadow of what it used to be.

Some good stories, some good lessons, some good direction, but not the end all/be all of Christianity (at least for me).

[Patrick]

If works are what save you, what was the purpose in Jesus having to come and die on the cross? Basing salvation on works completely makes the crucifixition meaningless.

[Midtowner]

If works are what save you, what was the purpose in Jesus having to come and die on the cross? Basing salvation on works completely makes the crucifixition meaningless.

So can non Christians not go to heaven in your version of Christianity?

[Patrick]

I define a Christian as someone who has accepted Christ as their personal Savior, and received His gift of free salvation.

God's Holy Word says that "all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

The thief dying on the cross asked Jesus to save him. Jesus did, telling him he'd be with Jesus in paradise. Did the thief have to work his way to heaven? Of course not. It was all based on faith. The thief didn't deny Christ and spit on him like the other thief did. Instead, he beleive that Jesus was the son of God. Thus, Christ saved him.

So, if you're simply working your way to heaven, you're not going to get there. Being "good" doesn't save you. All of have sinned and fallen short of His glory, thus we all deserve hell. But Christ provided a way out by givcing the ultimate sacrifice!

If we have to work our way to heaven, the whole New Testament is meaningless.

So, my answer....under my definition, non Christians would not go to heaven.

I don't believe the denomination or type of faith matters. There are many people in the Baptist church who aren't saved. And there are many people in the Catholic Church who ARE saved.

[Midtowner]

So Ghandi was not saved?

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

No. Hell for him.

[Patrick]

Verses showing that Grace is the ultimate method for eternal life:

Acts 15:6-11

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”


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John 6:27-59
27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.” 28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” 30So they asked him, “What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[a]” 32Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34“Sir,” they said, “from now on give us this bread.” 35Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” 41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[b] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

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Romans 3:21-31:

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

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Romans 4:

Abraham Justified by Faith
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about–but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”[b]

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring–not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed–the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[d] 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead–since he was about a hundred years old–and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness–for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.



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Romans 5:

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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[Patrick]

Romans 4 by far says it all! Works are a result of faith and salvation, they don't produce faith and salvation. If they did, circumcision would've been enough to be saved.

[Patrick]

Okay...I must go on....

Romans 9:

30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.” 33As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”[m]

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Galatians 5:
4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
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Ephesians 1:
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory.
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Ephesians 2:
4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions–it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

[Patrick]

Ephesians 2 is clear cut:

4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions–it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

[Patrick]

let's not get off topic and leave the sarcasm at the door please :P

Faith and works wasn't on topic but brings up what I always find an interesting subject, which is how people can interpret the same exact book in so many different ways. The scripture that Midtowner brings up seems to say point blank that works is just as/or more important as faith, yet I've had preachers tell me that you don't need works to be saved. very confusing

???

(edit- oops, i got off topic)

Look at the overall concept of Christianity, not the intricate details. Sometimes people get lost in the details.

If works were required for salvation, what was the point in Christ dying on the cross for our sins? It wouldn't have been necessary, for we could've simply "worked" our way to heaven, performing all sorts of good deeds.

Works are the fruit of the spirit, which come as a result of a true salvation from Grace. Works do not save you...they're a result of you being saved.

[Patrick]

In all reality, this wasn't intended to be a return to the debate of faith vs. works. I simply asked what your views on baptism were and whether you thought it was required for baptism. How on earth did we get back onto this debate?

[Midtowner]

In all reality, this wasn't intended to be a return to the debate of faith vs. works. I simply asked what your views on baptism were and whether you thought it was required for baptism. How on earth did we get back onto this debate?

I believe someone said that it was necessary for salvation. I disagreed. Then, I did what I do to most threads

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

More interestingly I'm surprised my hateful and sarcastic remark stirred no criticism. Oh well. Ghandi, he was a good guy.

Nonetheless, I have heard of old guys getting baptized later in life to make sure they have it. Is that valid?

[Patrick]

Nonetheless, I have heard of old guys getting baptized later in life to make sure they have it. Is that valid?

I don't really see the point since baptism doesn't save people. I suppose there's nothing wrong with it either though.