LIT proposes music mural

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

kmf563:

My statement Country is “arguably” the most popular on a national scale is based on the following:

1. The adverb ARGUABLY has 1 sense: “as can be shown by argument”
Source: arguably - definition of arguably by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

2. From: Star Tribune (Minneapolis, MN)
Date: November 5, 2006
Byline: Jon Bream; Staff Writer
“Country ranks as the nation's hottest musical genre. Check the numbers: - Sales of country CDs are up 11 percent over last year, according to Nielsen SoundScan, while all other genres have declined and ..” (I’m too cheap to subscribe for the rest of the story)

3. “There are more radio stations in the United States specializing in country music than any other format.” Source: Internet Campus - Welcome

4. Garth Brooks recently passed Elvis, The Beatles and Frank Sinatra as the top selling recording artist of all time.

5. Country Music 318M hits– Rap 140M hits - Hip Hop 83.7M hits Source: Google Fight : Make a fight with googleFight

I’m not arguing “only Country artists” but don’t exclude great Okies only because they are country artists.

In summary, don’t argue with “retired empty nesters” (aka Old Farts) we have more time to gather facts and will argue just for the sake of arguing. Put another way “Old age and treachery will trump youth and skill.”

Dismayed:

I appreciate you position but regret you are “tired of it.” Perhaps your Forum moniker says it all. My ornery side says “If you are tired, move on.” My compassionates side says, “Life is a matter of perspective.” Look to hip cities such as Austin and Dallas. They are about as country as you can get. Their “hipness” is due, arguably, to country roots exposed by “Austin City Limits” and “Dallas” (the TV show AND the NFL team). OKC can get there too and still keep its roots.

Thank you to Oh GAWD the Smell for Google fights. As neat an argument tool as I ever saw.

Finally: Thank you to every contributor to OKCTalk. This is the first of my contributions that has been answered. Perhaps I’m too old the know when to get off a dead horse. My ego tells me I’m great at the “Last Word, .” but I know better. At least one of I my postings may have shut down johnnyboyokc. “Bricktown Reportcard 10-15-2007”.

pj

Garth Brooks has NOT passed The Beatles or Elvis.

As for Googlefights, it's hardly an effective argument tool in my book...I was just being silly (as usual) because it's simply showing the amount of hits of the words, not the subject matter.. The word "country" has many, many more uses than the word "rap" and is (naturally) going to come back with tons more hits due to this. If you actually go to google.com and enter country music, you're going to get national anthems and the like from around the world. Not just a specific genre of music....Like you pretty much do by entering "rap" into the search field.

[dismayed]

I guess my thought is why should I move on, I'd rather stay and force OKC to suck less.

I can agree with you on Dallas having country roots, but I really don't see that being the case in Austin. I have seen things on 6th Street that would probably make Berkley, CA look 'country' in comparison. But in any case I have been to many places that have kept their native charm while portraying themselves as modern cities. So I agree with you, I think it can be done, and I'm not necessarily even opposed to that if we end up with that in OKC. But that is not where we are headed right now.

The thing about all of those places is that although they have maintained their heritage, there are also places you can go with big-city amenities, with new world flare, and with modern convenience. At times I feel like OKC has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century. This applies to the shopping, cuisine, housing, recreation/entertainment, etc. I'm not even saying OKC needs to completely transform itself. Just give us some options.

I guess if anything I'm just dismayed by the fact that there are so many small towns in the region that are accomplishing this, so why can't we?

[kevinpate]

Not a mega Garth-head, but Oh Gawd, even your source indicates the chap from Yukon has overtaken Presley, no insignificant feat at that-

Setting Records
...
On November 5, 2007, Brooks was again named the best selling solo artist in US history, surpassing Presley (but still #2 after the Beatles) after audited sales of 123 million were announced.


Like him, despise him, or think not of him, Garth struck a chord for many over the years, and apparently still does.

[PapaJack]

kevinpate I stand corrected. Garth is the best selling individual artist. My point as to the popularity of country music remains, however. Garth is emblematic of that.

OhGawd One thing I’ve learned is when someone pays you a compliment, simply say "thank you" and move on. For years I would apologize, or use “yes but..” responses. OKC and Oklahoma has been co-dependent like this for decades. Many are still trying to get over the dust bowl, oil bust, Penn Square etc. We have so much more to be proud of we should not be defensive, but hold our heads high and move on.

dismayed See OhGawd above. OKC HAS BEEN dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. And I like it. Lets not try to make it “suck less,” but be even better.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

One thing I've learned is that when somebody pays you a compliment, they're selling something.

[Doug Loudenback]

One thing I've learned is that when somebody pays you a compliment, they're selling something.

What a nice comment, Oh Gawd!

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

I'll TAKE TWO!

[PapaJack]

OK you caught me. What I'm selling is the concept that OKC has come a hell of a long way in the last 15 years, and we can go even further with compassionate cooperation. I'll eat sushi if you'll eat chicken fried whatever.

[kmf563]

blahbitty blah blah bloo.
I still don't see what this had to do with a wall for LIT on Flaming Lips Alley.

I like chocolate AND vanilla ice cream. That doesn't mean we can only sell the most popular choice in the restaurants in bricktown.

I think for the most part, there is a nice collaboration of something for everyone in bricktown thus far. There is a jazz theme in deep deuce - we didn't ask them to put up garth...did we?

We have hip hop clubs, we have country bars, we have all kinds of music and food differences throughout the place.

I just still think country doesn't fit this particular wall or it's surroundings. There is a street for vince gill down there also - put up a mural on that street of all country artists.

[PapaJack]

kmf563:

As per Google Fight; kmf563 1,180 hits - Papajack 479 You win.

LIT mural as proposed has four genres; Alternative, Jazz, Country and Woody Guthrie (folk ?). Are you proposing LIT display only Alternative, and the others be moved to their respective places in Bricktown and Deep Deuce?

I respect your opinion, but please lighten up in the name of compassionate cooperation. I like Neopolitan ice cream because I can savor each flavor or mix'em up as the mood strikes me.

pj

[Martin]

why not have both kinds... country -AND- western?

-M (sorry, that's my favorite movie)

[kmf563]

Have you ever been to LIT papajack? They highlight all of those genres of music with live bands - except Country. All of which is appropriate for the setting and all of which would be appropriate for the Lips Alley considering their music has a hint of all of those genres without the country.
I am simply stating my opinion and why I feel this way, just as you are. I am lightened up.

[PapaJack]

No, I have never been “LITened” up, although my children have. If LIT purposely excludes County I may never go there. If it’s a choice of LIT patrons, I fully respect the power of the dollar, and may enter sometime. Although I fear I may be as conspicuous as Peewee Herman at the biker bar…

Flaming Lips Alley touches many venues besides LIT; the ballpark, Coaches, Mickey Mantle’s, Hooters, Haunted Warehouse, Chellinos, Doc Blues, etc. To claim it as the sole territory of Alternative music is, in my opinion, a bit much.

I have enjoyed our repartee, even though to others it may seem like arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Thank you for you candor and convictions.

Later.

pj

[kmf563]

We must be talking about a completely different alley. Because the Flaming Lips Alley I have been on touches none of the above. It is a poorly lit dumpster filled alley that sits between the wall of LIT and the parking lot in front of the ballpark entrance.
It seems like you are arguing for the sake of argument because you are personally a country fan. Asking LIT to play country is like asking Graham's to play NIN. That's something I would love to see the line dance for.

You are most certainly entitled to your opinion, as am I.
Have a great day.

[jbrown84]

kmf, i'm pretty sure flaming lips alley is the one that runs between the ballpark and the power alley garage, and extends behind JDM and on down to the Biting Sow. That's been my impression.

[dismayed]

Head like a hole... [kick] Black as your soul... [kick] I'd rather die... [kick] than give you control [boot scoot shuffle shuffle]....

[kmf563]

Head like a hole... [kick] Black as your soul... [kick] I'd rather die... [kick] than give you control [boot scoot shuffle shuffle]....

ROTFL!!!

[BDP]

I don't see how this has anything to do with the relative popularity of country. Is the value of murals judged by the album sales of the artists depicted within? That'd be stupid.

I have no problem with the required review, but this is taking it too far in my opinion. I think the committee should consider the media, the size, the presentation, and possibly the way in which the chosen artists are depicted in the mural. But why should they pick the actual artists in the mural? Why do they get to place their "favorites" at the expense of the owners' or the artist's picks?

If anything, country music's commercial saturation is an argument to not include them in this mural. Since Oklahoma City has dozens of other venues that would be appropriate to display an homage to country music (possibly a dozen in the stockyards alone), maybe they should consider letting the owners express themselves the way they want and include the artists they feel are important to their image, their clients, and their target market or maybe just their personal sensibility. This is further compounded by the fact the committee wasn't looking for the country genre to be better represented. They were requesting SPECIFIC artists. That is pig headed to the extreme. It's not Lit's fault that other more appropriate venues around the city have not proposed commissioning such a mural, so why must Lit be forced to make up for their lack of effort?

To PapaJack: would you, or anyone else, find it reasonable if the Stockyards City Design Review committee required Little Joe's boots, Cattlemen's, or Langston's to include the Chainsaw Kittens, All American Rejects, and Hinder if they proposed a mural on their properties?

(BTW, Dallas is not that hip and what of it is hip has little to do with country music and is certainly in spite of the TV show, not because of it. Austin's brand of country is much more renegade and blusey, and the music scene there is not dominated by pure bred country. The alternative scene is strong and I seriously doubt they'd require country artists or even Stevie Ray Vaughn to be in a mural at Emo's. You might be thinking of Ft. Worth, which is not usually characterized as "hip" (would Billy Bob's be required to include Tripping Daisy in their mural??? LOL!). But again, this has little or nothing to do with the fact that the committee wants to hand pick artists because of their popularity and genre)

[PapaJack]

To elucidate my original position, Lit is in Bricktown and BUDC’s authority over Bricktown is established by law. To challenge BUDC’s authority over Lit is, to me, tantamount to endorsing Hogan’s Lower Bricktown development. He moved his $$ away from BUDC’s control to pursue his agenda.

Lit’s original mural featured one alternative band and three deceased individual musicians separated from The Flaming Lips (TFL) by at least forty years. One of those musicians is definitely country (Wills) and Woody Guthrie is closer to country than any other genre. Does anyone have personal knowledge of Lit’s intent in including Charlie, Bob and Woody? If Lit was trying to show historical lineage to TFL they missed the mark. If they were trying to show great Oklahoma musicians, then Wills should be out. I believe BUDC was correct in recommending the Arts Council review.

The inclusion of Vince and Carrie on Lit’s mural were suggestions, not requirements, according to Kelly Chambers. The Arts Council will hopefully render recommendations based upon their knowledge and experience, and I will accept them.

Turning to the Stockyards. I applaud BDP for including true Oklahoma based musicians in his mural. But, is Bricktown synonymously single in origin as the Stockyards? I think not. Bricktown is eclectic, and if Lit’s intent was to appease BUDC they obviously erred. I wonder what BUDC’s response would be to only Oklahoma alternative musicians? Isn't a quarter or less a loaf better than none?

No, I do not have Dallas confused with Fort Worth. Granted, Dallas may not be high on the hip meter, but it’s higher than OKC (again my opinion) and Ft. Worth does not have a namesake TV show reeking in country cliches, nor does it have professional sports teams named Cowboys and Mavericks. Austin's brand of country is much more renegade and bluesy, but its still country and “Austin City Limits” spread the word via Public Television, of all things. My experience has been that you will probably see more cowboy boots and turquoise jewelry on Congress or Commerce Streets than on Sheridan.

This thread reminds me of the ashen pallor a co-worker of mine had when he discovered his favorite Texaco Opera tenor, Placido Domingo, cut a track with Willie Nelson. And I loved it.

[kmf563]

Man I love Austin City Limits. Dec 15th John Mayer is on.

Some of my favorite episodes so far have been The Pixies, Phish, Ben Harper, The Flaming Lips, Ryan Adams, The Killers, Los Lonely Boys, and Paolo Nutini. Good stuff.

Of course, the ACL festival is always a good time. Lots of great acts there.

[PapaJack]

We are in agreement! There's hope for peace in the Middle East yet!

pj

[Misty]

The Damien Jr. Gong Marley show is my current fav. I love him!

[BDP]

To elucidate my original position, Lit is in Bricktown and BUDC’s authority over Bricktown is established by law.

I don't think anyone is challenging their claim of authority, just what they are choosing to do with it. Power is a privilege and when it is abused, people should speak up. Withholding approval to force consideration of the inclusion of specific artists is overreaching, imo. Bricktown is and should be eclectic, you are correct. They way you accomplish that is to let the venues there express their own brand of entertainment as they see fit. This way you achieve a sincere mix of perspectives, not a manufactured one. Forcing inclusion of specific artists in one specific mural does not promote an eclectic environment. It creates a homogeneous one. Again, let the next mural done by the country and western venue or district represent that genre as they see fit, instead of asking Lit to bear the burden of representing other points of view simply because they are the only one with the vision and willingness to create a mural at this time. Otherwise, it sets a precedent that if a place like Toby's wanted a mural they'd have to consider Hinder and the Lips for approval. Such a precedent only discourages any venue from doing so if they have any interest in freely bringing their distinct point of view to what is and should continue to be an eclectic district of the city.

[PapaJack]

To my knowledge, the final form of the Lit mural hasn't been decided. BUDC and the Arts Council have not exceeded their authority - yet. The decision will be from a body established by officials that were legally elected (I voted but as for you I can't say). Your remedy is to vote for officials that reflect your viewpoint. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." Churchill

[BDP]

WTF? So you're saying that since they were legally elected, the only thing to do is vote for different people next time? You have a very limited view of democracy, but that seems to be commonplace these days. The people's responsibility to participate in their governance in not limited solely to voting. You should remain active and engage your local officials while they are in office. I have done this and continue to do this. I advise you do the same.

Anyway, legality is not at issue here, so I have no idea why you're bringing this up in the first place.