The NBA in OKC Megathread

[jbrown84]

the league will suffer greatly if a franchise moves from one of its most cultured and cosmopolitan markets to . . . Oklahoma City! Good Lord, this is like the Rockettes leaving Radio City Music Hall for their new permanent home at the Mystery Dinner Theater on I-Drive.

I guess he's not aware of the exhibit from the Louvre that is coming to OKC, Seattle, and Indianapolis next year. Lest he forget that his city would be NOTHING, absolutely nothing if it weren't for Disney World locating there?

[BDP]

I wouldn't worry about it too much, jbrown, the guy is from Orlando. Orlando is where culture goes to die.

And besides, I'm not really sure if the simile of NBA basketball teams and the areans they play being like the Rockettes and Radio City Music Hall even makes sense. I guess it takes someone from Orlando to see the similarities.

[HOT ROD]

I guess he's not aware of the exhibit from the Louvre that is coming to OKC, Seattle, and Indianapolis next year. Lest he forget that his city would be NOTHING, absolutely nothing if it weren't for Disney World locating there?

Jbrown, the exhibit is in Seattle right now. I am glad that OKC got it first!

[HOT ROD]

All is quiet here in Seattle these days.

[Kerry]

Cultured and cosmopolitan doesn't pay the bills. This is the one thing the people of Seattle and many sports writers just can't seem to understand. I don't know if they don't want to understand it or if they are just stupid. I am betting on stupid.

14th largest TV martket, gateway to the Pacific rim, 40 year history, 3 million people, most educated city in the country, more millionaires per capita, Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Microsoft, Boeing, the mountains, Pikes Place, the players love Seattle, skiing - NONE OF IT MATTERS!

The fact is the Sonics have been losing money for 5 years and 3 different owners, and the loses have no end in sight. In fact, all of the items mentioned above by forum posters and sports writers should serve as an indictment against Seattle. They have all of this going for them and they still can't field a profitable sports team.

Instead of looking at thier own problems and finding a solution all they can do is run a negativity campaign against OKC. The first step in finding a solution is admitting you have a problem. If you listen to sports writers, Seattle doesn't have a problem, the rest of the free enterprise system is wrong.

The team will be gone for 20 years and some baffon in Seattle will still be holding out hope that the Sonics are just using their "temporary" relocation as a ploy to get a new stadium in Seattle. The city attorney might even call it a transparet attempt to alienate Sonics fans. After all, the NBA needs Seattle more than Seattle needs the NBA. Really? Who is holding the Save our Sonics rally next week? Surly not the NBA Commisioner. I am not even remotely aware of the NBA owners having a Save our Seattle rally.

And finally, the good people of Seattle try using the argument that other NBA owners won't approve the move because they don't want an OKC based Sonics team being a drain on the revenue sharing. Hello, Earth to Seattle, the Sonics are already a drain on the revenue sharing. They are losing $17 million per year in Seattle. If I was an owner I would be begging for the Sonics to move.

[jbrown84]

Well said, Kerry.

[OU Adonis]

I didn't think the NBA had much revenue sharing anyway?

[BDP]

Seattle doesn't have a problem, the rest of the free enterprise system is wrong.

You make some great points, but I don't think that the NBA's general business practices, or that of professional sports in general, resemble anything that can be called free enterprise. Clay Bennett was asking for more than $250 million in public investment as a condition of maintaining a presence in Seattle, after all. I think some articles have a good point in that professional sports rely too heavily on public subsidy. It actually market shops based largely in part by the amount of subsidy a state or municipality will provide. Seattle has taken the position that it is done with that, and it will probably lose its team because of it. I wouldn't call that free enterprise, but it is the current reality of professional sports. It is wrong for people to criticize Bennett's tactics and excuse that of just about every other professional sports organization in existence. Maybe some are trying to argue a matter of degree, but really, once public subsidy has been solicited and granted, the principles of negotiation and economic conduct change for everyone and at all levels.

[betts]

Eaach NBA team receives $30 million dollars a year from the League as their share of television revenue. That's the extent of the revenue sharing. The problem with the NBA is that the average NBA team nets about $10 million a year after expenses. Teams that make the playoffs and teams in the largest cities are the ones most likely to end up in the black, and some make upwards of $30 million. If you've spent $300+ million on a team, even the best return is barely a good investment. If you have to build an arena with your own money, your return drops further. So, I don't blame owners for asking for public funds. A team adds value to a community, not because it brings in actual funds from taxes, but rather because it enables a city to attract businesses, keep college graduates from leaving and enhanciing quality of life.

[Kerry]

You are exactly correct betts. The NBA is a marketing tool to attract and retain business which in turn supports the local economy. This is already done for so many other business but it just isn't as high profile. Look at WRWA as an example. Would anyone seriously make the arguement that if Southwest Airlines wants to do business in OKC then they should build their own airport? No they wouldn't. Everyone on the forum, and OKC in general, applauded the renovation of WRWA even though local governement picked up the entire bill. And the outrage that did surface was from people who thought more gates should have been added.

[HOT ROD]

Kerry, I couldn't agree with you more - except that Boeing is in Downtown Chicago. We still have the majority of the production jobs but the ones that count are all in a skyscraper in the Windy City.

Heck, OKC has Boeing too (and over 2000 employees), so maybe OKC should start claiming Boeing too.

[solitude]

Look at WRWA as an example. Would anyone seriously make the argument that if Southwest Airlines wants to do business in OKC then they should build their own airport? No they wouldn't. Everyone on the forum, and OKC in general, applauded the renovation of WRWA even though local governement picked up the entire bill.

Apples and oranges. Transportation is considered a critical part of public infrastructure. I don't think anyone could rationally explain how an NBA team could be considered a part of our infrastructure. It's a friggin basketball team! I'm excited about the NBA in Oklahoma City, but hate the fact that they expect huge public giveaways. Especially when it's guys like Clay Bennett who are considered politically "conservative," yet he himself runs to the government for handouts. God forbid a child needs health care and the family seeks government assistance. But a basketball team? Clay is right there lined up at the public trough explaining the "need" for government assistance - and tax increases, if necessary, to pay for it! Hypocritical.

[Easy180]

Apples and oranges. Transportation is considered a critical part of public infrastructure. I don't think anyone could rationally explain how an NBA team could be considered a part of our infrastructure. It's a friggin basketball team! I'm excited about the NBA in Oklahoma City, but hate the fact that they expect huge public giveaways. Especially when it's guys like Clay Bennett who are considered politically "conservative," yet he himself runs to the government for handouts. God forbid a child needs health care and the family seeks government assistance. But a basketball team? Clay is right there lined up at the public trough explaining the "need" for government assistance - and tax increases, if necessary, to pay for it! Hypocritical.

Let's not get too excited about what Bennett will ask of the city...Certain he was throwing all of that out there to throw another dart at Seattle, but outside of a new arena and practice facility we have no idea what else will be on his wishlist

We all need to realize that even though we all enjoy where we live that we will need to foot the bill on a new arena....OKC is not in any position to try and land/retain a major league team w/o paying for the venue for the team to play in

Like it or not a city like OKC will have to pay to play with the big boys and I will gladly do so...I'm not even a big basketball fan, but I did like what the Hornets brought to the city...Seemed to bring out a lot of pride and excitement to a city that definitely needed a shot of both

[dcsooner]

Easy you are 100% correct. OKC will have to spend to place a top venue for top players to want to play in. We do not have some of the amenities of other cities Surf, Forests, but I believe top players will come a play in OKC if our arena is second to none, the fans are rabid, and ownership is committed to winning

[solitude]

Hey guys, I understand the realities. I was speaking more of professional sports in general and using the "conservative" Clay Bennett as an example of a lot of hypocrisy. I was also responding to Kerry's comparing building an airport for the airlines with an arena for a basketball team. Also, I'm not suggesting OKC not build a new arena at some point. I was really lamenting the fact of the matter as it's clearly wrong. It was a slippery slope when all this running to taxpayers for professional sports started in the seventies and eighties.

[HOT ROD]

Solitude.

One things for sure, Bennett loves OKC. So does all of the other investors in the club. So, what Im saying is dont start discounting Clay's intentions or aspirations just yet.

Wait for the inevitable to happen, for Clay to bring the franchise home.

I bet you might be in for a surprise. It might not cost OKC much at all to ensure the franchise is successful in OKC. Like I said, Bennett and Co. love OKC - and even Aubrey went on record saying he doesn't even care about profit if the team were in OKC.

Read between those (and other) lines and I think those guys would contribute SIGNIFICANTLY to a new arena (may even pay for it outright) as long as it is in OKC and THEY have their team playin' in it.

Seattle may not like this - but I could totally see Bennett and the owners 'stepping up' to the plate for OKC UNLIKE any of our RICH PEOPLE have done up here. Why would OKC people invest in Seattle, when they COULD invest in their own hometown. ...

Like I said, Bennett and Co. bought the Sonics at a premium for the sole purpose to either make $$ in Seattle OR move the franchise to OKC at all cost, so they can watch the team in their own backyard and IMPROVE their OWN city. If that means investing more in OKC, so be it.

I dont think there will be much money asked of the citizens of OKC outside of what has already been planned/discussed. These owners have too much pride and vested interest in OKC and making the city attractive and successful. I highly suspect they will also be financially involved (especially since it would be tax writeoffs for most of them).

[Saberman]

Large companies hold cities, and states, hostage trying to get them to build facilities and provide tax breaks to move in with new jobs. I don't think it is much different for professional sports teams to expect some of the same.

Some will say that the team only provides a limited number of jobs, but they fail to talk about any of the other jobs and businesses that start because of the team being in the city, extra Bricktown jobs(waiting tables, parking cars, etc.) on game days, vendors(T-shirts, hats, jerseys, etc.). Not to mention all that free advertising on ESPN when your team plays. We also get bigger and better events to be held in a world class arena. This adds to our sales tax base. Now your looking at factors that bring businesses to our area because we have more activities for the "quality of life" factor for their employees.

I digress, the fact is cities provide these kinds of incentives to all types of companies, if a city wants to grow these days they have got to invest in it.

[BDP]

if a city wants to grow these days they have got to invest in it.

I think you're right, but I think some are misinterpreting the characterization of this practice as contrary to small government or free enterprise as a qualitative judgment. And, I'm guessing that those who are making a qualitative judgment of the practice would also argue that government subsidy or investment in private industry is universally misguided and don't hold such criticism exclusively for professional sports.

For the record, I am not making such a judgment, but it should be noted that such practices are not within the realm of free enterprise, nor are they in line with traditional "conservative" philosophies of using laissez faire, small government principles to guide public policy. If anything, I think some are simply pointing out the irony that conservatism has shifted away from such practices and now seems to favor distribution of public resources to private industry with little or no support for regulation of the industries receiving benefits. It seems that Bennett either is of the same political mindset, or is simply capitalizing on the current political climate that favors public investment in private businesses, especially ones with large capital bases to begin with.

[HOT ROD]

From the Daily:

NewsOK: NBA forms committee to oversee Sonics relocation bid

NBA forms committee to oversee Sonics relocation bid
From Staff Reports

SEATTLE — The NBA has formed the relocation committee to oversee the Seattle SuperSonics proposed move to Oklahoma City, but because of continued legal wrangling, any move could be delayed past next season.

The developments, according to reports in the Seattle media, include:

A rejection by Judge Richard Martinez of the Sonics’ bid to expedite the case. Martinez said a trial date will be set just like any other case. That pre-trial period must be held before the judge decides when to set a trail date.

A verdict could be appealed to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, which would extend the proceedings even longer.

The City of Seattle is suing the team over the Sonics’ attempt to be freed from its lease. The Sonics, who are owned by a group of Oklahoma City businessmen, are seeking to get out of the lease to Key Arena, which runs through 2009-2010.
Team chairman Clay Bennett filed for relocation on Nov. 2.

The NBA’s relocation committee overseeing the proposed move will be led by Miami Heat managing general partner Micky Airson, along with Jerry Buss of the LA Lakers, Chris Cohan of the Golden State Warriors, Lewis Katz of the New Jersey Nets, Herb Simon of the Indiana Pacers, Ed Snider of the Philadelphia 76ers and Peter Holt of the San Antonio Spurs.

The NBA Board of Governors will discuss the move at their meeting April 17-18, league spokesman Tim Frank told the Seattle Post-Intellegencer.

The NBA must complete its schedule for the 2008-09 in August 2008, so there will have to be some resolution by then.

“Obviously that (timing) is an issue,” Frank told the newspaper. “But we’re at least beginning due diligence on reviewing the application.”

From the SeaPI:

SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER
NBA forms Sonics relocation committee

NBA forms Sonics relocation committee
Friday, November 30, 2007
Last updated 12:08 a.m. PT

By GREG JOHNS
P-I REPORTER

The NBA has put together a committee of seven owners to look into the relocation application filed by Sonics chairman Clay Bennett, but the city of Seattle's lawsuit against the team continues to be an impediment to any fastbreak to Oklahoma.

A request by Bennett's lawyers to set up a scheduling conference to expedite the U.S. District Court trial was rejected earlier this month by Judge Ricardo Martinez, who ruled the trial date will be set in the same manner as any other civil case.

That means the sides will undergo a period of discovery, exchanging of documents and pre-trial motions before Martinez decides when to hear the case in court.

The uncertainty of a legal resolution leaves the league in limbo, since Bennett and his ownership group are bound by their KeyArena lease through the 2009-10 season unless they win their case in Martinez's court.

Even then, any verdict by Martinez could be appealed to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco, which could extend the legal process another year or more.

"Obviously that's an issue," NBA spokesman Tim Frank said of the impending court process. "But we're at least beginning due diligence on reviewing the application."

Micky Arison, managing general partner of the Miami Heat, is chairman of the NBA Board of Governors. He will oversee a relocation committee consisting of Jerry Buss (Los Angeles Lakers), Chris Cohan (Golden State Warriors), Lewis Katz (New Jersey Nets), Herb Simon (Indiana Pacers), Ed Snider (Philadelphia 76ers) and Peter Holt (San Antonio Spurs).

Holt and Bennett were part of a diverse ownership group that purchased the Spurs in 1993. Bennett then represented the Spurs on the NBA Board of Governors until 1998, when his father-in-law's firm, the Oklahoma Publishing Co., sold its interest in the team to Holt, who then became the Spurs chairman of the board.

The relocation committee has not yet met, according to Frank, but has bought itself a little more cushion by delaying the time frame required for a recommendation. NBA bylaws provide a 120-day window from the time of a relocation request for the committee to make a final report to the full Board of Governors, which ultimately must approve of any move.

The board would then have up to 30 days to vote, with a simple majority (16 of 30 owners) needed to allow relocation.

Bennett filed for relocation on Nov. 2, which put the relocation committee's deadline at March 1. But Frank said the board has agreed to amend the deadline so the topic can be discussed at the next Board of Governor's meeting April 17-18.

For the Sonics to be moved to Oklahoma City by next season, the league would need a decision by the time the 2008-09 schedule is completed in early August.

Which brings everything back to the impending court case and the city's attempt to present a feasible arena solution for the Sonics' future beyond 2010. Seattle deputy mayor Tim Ceis acknowledged that the city is preparing a KeyArena remodel proposal that will be presented publicly in the next several weeks, but declined further comment.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P-I reporter Greg Johns can be reached at 206-448-8314 or gregjohns@seattlepi.com.

© 1998-2007 Seattle Post-Intelligencer

[HOT ROD]

Interesting that the news hasn't hit the SeaTimes yet. .....

Oh wait, .... ......

they only headline "Pro-Seattle" stories, anything else is tomorrow's news for them. ...

[Kerry]

A Key Arena remodel? Aren't the politcal leaders in Seattle paying attention? The claim to be trying to keep the Sonics in Seattle but then they purpose the one thing the owners of the team says is a deal breaker. Throw in the fact that Seattle doesn't have the money to build an arena, the state won't help, the citizens won't pass a new tax by 2/3 votes, and the fact that the city has to earn a profit off of the arena (I-91) leads me to believe that this proposal will never get off the ground and will be dead on arrival. I can't wait to see how rediculous the funding mechanism is.

[SouthsideSooner]

Sonics Insider


Prentice speaks out on arena issue
Posted by Eric Williams @ 09:43:13 pm


The effort to keep the Seattle SuperSonics in the Puget Sound area is on life support, according to state Sen. Margarita Prentice (D-Renton), chairwoman of the Senate Ways and Means committee.

“They are about as close to (being gone) as I have experienced,” Prentice said. “It’s a shame. A lot of people are going to be disappointed. It’s a disgrace to lose a team for no good reason.”

And Prentice doesn’t mince words when asked who’s to blame for the NBA franchise’s imminent departure from the Emerald City – pointing a finger at the City of Seattle.

“Seattle has painted itself in a corner because it’s impossible now,” Prentice said. “They are desperate, trying to figure out a way to make it work, and it doesn’t work.

“Too may people have engaged in wishful thinking, hoping that the fairy godmother is going to arrive, and there’s no such person out there.”

The comments were the Renton senator’s harshest since Sonics chairman Clay Bennett and his Oklahoma City-based ownership group purchased the team in July 2006. Prentice said Seattle city officials, along with the powers-that-be in Olympia, worked to kill an effort proposed by Bennett’s group during last year’s legislative session to build a new arena for the Sonics within her district in Renton.

“I know for a fact that he wanted to stay,” Prentice said about Bennett. “He spent a lot of time and money trying to make it work here. And the real tragedy is we had the votes in both houses.”

Looking ahead to the 60-day 2008 session of the Legislature that begins Jan. 14, Prentice said chances are slim for a new arena proposal to develop. Prentice appears to have an ally in the house in state Rep. Eric Pettigrew (D-Seattle), who backed the proposal for an arena in Renton.

“It’s a dead duck as far as I know,” Pettigrew said. “I haven’t heard any whispers or anything. But as a business supporter and someone who has always been a fan of the Sonics and Storm I would be supportive if someone is willing to step up and come up with a creative way to make it work.”

Seattle deputy mayor Tim Ceis has said the city will introduce a revamped KeyArena proposal in the near future. It will include a price tag considerably less than the $500 million Bennett’s ownership group has asked for in a new arena. But Ceis has not given a specific date when that proposal will be released. Ceis didn’t return phone calls to The News Tribune on Monday.

“(Bennett) has made it very clear – KeyArena will not work,” Prentice said. “I spoke to him today. I had called just to see if there was any room for him and the city to talk, and he won’t discuss anything that includes KeyArena.”

When asked if the Sonics would support a new arena proposal in the Legislature, Dan Mahoney, a spokesman for Bennett, declined to comment.

Meanwhile, the NBA has created a relocation committee to review the Sonics ownership group’s application to move to Oklahoma City. Bennett’s group filed for relocation on Nov. 2. According to NBA by-laws, the committee has 120 days to make a recommendation to the full board of governors. NBA spokesperson Tim Frank said the issue is scheduled for discussion April 17-18 during semiannual meetings in New York.

The process is in its early stages, Frank said, adding that the relocation committee has not scheduled a time and place for its first meeting.

“Obviously they will review the proposal and do their due diligence on the other aspects of the proposal, and then make a recommendation to the board,” Frank said.

The seven-member committee is headed by Micky Arison, managing general partner of the Miami Heat. Arison also serves as chairman of the board of governors. Other members include Jerry Buss (Los Angeles Lakers), Chris Cohan (Golden State Warriors), Lewis Katz (New Jersey Nets), Herb Simon (Indiana Pacers), Ed Snider (Philadelphia 76ers) and Peter Holt (San Antonio Spurs).
Seattle’s pending lawsuit against the Sonics could affect the relocation process.

Last month, attorneys for the Sonics ownership group requested a scheduling conference to speed up a possible federal court trail. However, the team’s request was rejected by U.S. District Court Judge Ricardo Martinez.

The city and the Sonics are going through discovery, exchanging documents and making pre-trial motions before Martinez sets a trial date.

The only other arena proposal to be presented publicly, the Muckleshoot Indian Tribe’s market feasibility study on a site the tribe owns next to Emerald Downs in Auburn, received a tepid response from both the Sonics ownership group and the state, with neither formally replying, spokesperson Rollin Fatland said.

Gov. Chris Gregoire has said she will continue to work to keep the Sonics in Seattle. But even if the city gets the result it wants and the Sonics have to honor their lease through 2010, Prentice said the decision only prolongs the inevitable.

“They will absorb that,” Prentice said about Bennett’s group keeping the Sonics in Seattle another two years. “And I think he (Bennett) will be regarded as a hero back home.

“I don’t know if Clay Bennett even wants to continue talking, but I certainly will because there are supporters and fans of the Sonics out there.”

[HOT ROD]

You're right Kerry. It seems as tho the city of Seattle is trying to 'appeal' to the other owners by making the issue; which do you prefer a) a chance in Oklahoma City or b) a remodel of an already established market in Seattle.

The city blew it in the way they regarded Bennett. They treated him like he was from WA, like they did Schultz and all other owner groups since Ackerley. The city acted holier than thou like they could not contribute or listen to anything, and this was back when Schultz WAS proposing a Key remodel. Then, the city said NO.

Now, the city is trying to propose a Key remodel.. ....?? Why didn't the city listen to Schultz when HE proposed it? Im sure this will come out and the BOG will see that the city is just trying to save face and really doesn't present anything that could be as profitable as Oklahoma City. The city is pulling straws with the LAST ditch effort it has to try to convince the league (and Seattle fans) that they NOW desire the Sonics to stay - too little and FAR too late, huh. ..

Where was the city when Bennett wanted the Renton arena? Bennett even went to the mayor to get him to get something done and what was the response? The city of Seattle in fact had done NOTHING until Aubrey opened his mouth and 'hurt the feelings of Seattle.' Lawsuits, fighting words, and now bring up Key Arena remodel ---

Nobody is arguing on market, but when it comes to the building - Im sure everyone will agree with Clay that Key Arena (remodel or not) is OUT!! (otherwise, they never would have approved him as an owner).

[jbrown84]

Seattle burned bridges with Bennett by suing him. They are kidding themselves if they think he's going to work with them now, or stay beyond 2010 even if they win the lawsuit.

[BDP]

That's what's so weird about this. Seattle and Washington spent most of the time while under the deadline making sure that the Sonics got NO help and did it in a very stand offish way. They were trying to make a statement. There's nothing wrong with that, but apparently they didn't really believe in what they were doing, because they're now attempting some patch work solutions. If they hadn't pass I-91, I would have some sympathy for them, but they chose to not only reject the Sonics demands, but they went the extra mile to screw the Sonics and any other potential tenant... yet, they tell us they want the team there.

Again, I totally understand them not wanting to play the game, but if that's the case, then they need to let it go, regroup, and then get someone in there that is interested in being in the market on their terms. If it's that good, then someone will step up. If it's not, then be happy with your principles, even if it means no NBA. I seriously doubt that Seattle will even care after a year without the NBA.