The NBA in OKC Megathread

[metro]

^^ Either way $240 million for 10 miles is the point.

Keep in mind Seattle is a hilly and also wet city in addition to things costing more on the West Coast. Therefore, their cost per mile is greater than say OKC would be since they have to pave/grade roads and bike lanes up and down hills as well as have more drainage systems than we do. If you read the Seattle Times article explaining the bike lanes, etc. it will go more in detail.

[HOT ROD]

Kerry, the Seattle Public Schools ahve 55,000 kids in it. the district covers the whole city of Seattle. OKC, by comparison is 40,000 in half of the city; so OKC has more kids than SeaPub as well.

I agree that Seattle has reached its maximum size. Unlike OKC, we can't pass anything unless we tap into the rest of the metro area. That is why almost everything fails here.

That transit plan, which I voted down also, was ridiculous. it was to set up a slush fund, where many projects lumped together would 'disappear' and all of sudden that money would be used to kee the 737 production in this state.

We ALL saw through the government, and even had a key leader (King County Executive Ron Sims) flip sides against it (even tho he was a primary proponent initially and IS in general for mass transit). The problem with it is, it has highway stuff yet we have already seen HUGE gas tax increases over the last 7 years - so why do we need more $$ for highways is the thought???

I dont like the light rail alignment from the initiative. makes no sense.

But yes, this is way way off topic. Maybe Ill start a new thread regarding quirky Seattle.

[BDP]

Places like Seattle and San Francisco have reached their maximum size. Infrastrucutre improvements are almost cost prohibitive and that will greatly reduce their ability to attract new business and residents in the future. In these cities the only growth will be in the suburbs. Compare them to some place like Atlanta or Phoenix that are experience simultanious city proper and suburban growth.

San Francisco has been growing and building like crazy and they are in the final planning stages to build the largest building on the West coast as part of a major overhaul and reinvention of their transbay terminal:

'Aggressive schedule' for proposed Transbay transit center, tower



I think this qualifies as major growth in terms of infrastructure. The leading firm offered $350 million for the rights to develop the site, which is helping to pay for a new 900+ million dollar transbay terminal. Just think if we could get OCURA to award some land for development and use those proceeds to help our public transit! If anything, the city is growing and the peninsula is stagnant (although it's been rebounding as well). I also know that they put in new muni lines from third down the embarcadero in the last few years. South of Market has gone verticle with even more condos coming online. If that's dead, here's to hoping Oklahoma City catches a terminal condition soon! These infrastructure improvements are expensive, yes, but they serve soooo many more people than similar improvements would here. So, despite their prices tags, they are actually more efficient.

As for Seattle, it doesn't seem to be a case of not having the money, it seems to be a readjustment to their priorities. I think OKC and Seattle are in different places and it makes sense for them to spend money on things that improves the quality of life for all residents, while OKC still needs to spend money to raise its profile. I think it's great they're spending money on public infrastructure instead of subsidizing sports teams. Right now OKC needs to do both. I just wish Seattle would also graciously conceded that such a shift in priorities may just result in losing the team they no longer want to give additional subsidy, instead of suing them out of spite.

[okclee]

Let's get this thread back on track, more news about the NBA in Seattle / Okc.

ESPN - Stern: NBA won't return to Seattle if Sonics leave - NBA

Stern criticizes city, state governments in Sonics dealings
Associated Press

Updated: November 8, 2007, 5:00 PM ET

PHOENIX -- NBA commissioner David Stern warned on Thursday that if the SuperSonics leave Seattle he sees no way the league would ever return to the city.

"I'd love to find a way to keep the team there," he said, "because if the team moves, there's not going to be another team there, not in any conceivable future plan that I could envision, and that would be too bad."

At a news conference following his announcement that the 2009 All-Star Game would be held in Phoenix, Stern criticized the city of Seattle and the Washington legislature for its handling of the issue of funding a replacement for Key Arena.

Stern repeated earlier criticism of the mayor and city council for promoting a measure, overwhelmingly passed by voters, that requires any funds to help build an arena earn money at the same rate as a treasury bill.

That measure simply means there is no way city money would ever be used on an arena project, Stern said.

He also lamented that the state legislature refused to consider continuing a tax that helped fund Seattle's baseball and football stadiums.

"To have the speaker of the house say, 'Well, they just spend too much money on salaries anyway, so we need it for other things,'" Stern said, casts aspersions on the whole league's operations. "We get the message. Hopefully, maybe cooler heads will prevail."

He was referring to a remark by House Speaker Frank Chopp last February when funding for a new arena in the Seattle suburb of Renton was proposed.

"They ought to get their own financial house in order when their payroll is over $50 million for, what is it, 10 players? I think that's a little ridiculous," Chopp said at the time. "They need to get their own financial house in order and if they did, they wouldn't have to ask for public help."

Stern's comments were much tougher than the ones he made last June, when he said he believed the issue was "just going to work itself out."

SuperSonics owner Clay Bennett told the NBA last Friday that he plans to move the team to Oklahoma City. When that move would occur depends on outcome of litigation with the city over the franchise's Key Arena lease. The lease calls for the team to play in Seattle through the 2009-10 season, but Bennett wants out sooner.

As the issue becomes more and more contentious, Stern said he hopes "that a white knight that hasn't existed before, somebody who has a building plan of how to keep the team there, will step forward."

The commissioner's comments came at the end of a news conference where he spent most of his time rehashing the one-game suspension of Amare Stoudemire and Boris Diaw for leaving the bench after San Antonio's Robert Horry slammed teammate Steve Nash into the scorer's table in last season's conference semifinals.

NBA rules require a one-game suspension for any player who leaves the bench in such incidents.

Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press

ESPN - Stern: NBA won't return to Seattle if Sonics leave - NBA

[HOT ROD]

BDP, I dont disagree with your sentiments about SF but just because they are finally building a new skyscraper does not necessarily translate into the city being alive or dead. Without the tourism aspect, I'd say both downtown SF and Seattle are dead whereas OKC is improving; perhaps in a few years with residents in downtown SF things might liven up, but I digress.

Sorry for changing the topic, now back to the NBA in OKC.

It is funny that Seattle thinks they're all that (except me and a few other grounded people) and yet the city is about to completely lose out - and the city will still have it's nose in the air and ego in the clouds; coming up with excuse after excuse and slam after slam on OKC or about OKC being viable or not.

What about Seattle's viability??? To me, that is the question; and this article proves it. If Seattle were so desireable and the NBA couldn't live without it, then why would the NBA say they'd never come back WHEN the Sonics leave???

Notice I said, WHEN... There are reasons for that.

I-91 - the city passed this initiative which all but makes it impossible to build a new arena in Seattle unless there is a profit sharing agreement (hence new lease) in place. Bennett will NOT sign a new lease with Seattle and there is NO WAY that an arena could be otherwise built in the city; given all of the hurdles and lack of land/infrastructure.

Key Arena - the city wants to rebuild Key Arena to suit the Sonics. They are talking about either razing it altogether and starting from scratch (which is what should have happened in 1994 by the way, per the lease/contract; which is IM sure what will get Bennett out of the lease, but I digress) or a remodel of the existing structure, again. Of course, this would certainly mean a NEW lease for Bennett and therefore Definitely a dead idea. Too little too late, since Howard Schultz would have accepted this had the city been so kind back when he owned the team (H.S. offered significant dollars and wanted the city to match and have Key Arena rebuilt, the city said 'hell no' at that time and took the stance of not caring that they've continued to date).

New Initiative - I forget the number, but we JUST passed a new initiative which will require ALL tax increases, whether they are passed by the leg or voted on by the people, all new tax increases will require a 2/3 majority to approve. In the past, they only required a simple majority vote or of the quorum (sp?). This all but guarantees that there will be NO NEW ARENA in Washington state. There is NO WAY that 2/3 of the leg or populous will approve a new arena or even a portion of it. It aint gonna happen.

So, we're back to square one. Private funding. And so far, NOBODY has stepped up with a funding plan for an arena. Muck's offered land, so did Sabey; but in reality those plans only served THEIR interests.

And yes, the former minority owners would like to buy the team back and let them keep playing at Key Arena regardless of the losses; but too little (since they wont make it worth Bennett's while [see greater than $350M]), too late (since they should have stepped up when Schultz was seeking local buyers, prior to Bennett's entry). Besides, Bennett has said he will not sell the team; he's wanted the franchise forever and finally has it. There is no way I see that he'd sell to appease Seattle's ego.

So, the LAST thing that would keep the team in Seattle is if some rich person out of the goodness of his heart, built a palace for Bennett. But even then, the state/county/city would have to fund infrastructure which likely would not pass. Furthermore, I highly doubt this person exists; there is a reason why we have so many rich people (relatively speaking), they hold onto their wealth here; so don't look for an arena announcement from private investors EVER.

Besides, once Bennett gets NBA approval to move (say pre-March 2008) - I'd imagine he'd immediately sign a conditional intent to play/lease with Oklahoma City officials with the date being the condition of litigation results, either Oct 1, 2008 or by Oct 1, 2010. So, either the board approves first (and Bennett gets a conditional lease with OKC) or the fed court rules (and Bennett gets an actual lease with OKC); either way - once this happens,

Seattle might as well concede. I'd prefer that we concede already and try to get as much as we can from Bennett. In doing so, perhaps we'd plead to the NBA that we desire a new franchise which could resurrect the Supersonics. We'd also plead that we'd work on an arena and in the future would like to be considered/promised.

See, Seattle had a lot of leverige (sp) but failed to utilize it due to pride and stupidity and being pompass. Instead of working with the NBA (one way or another, an arena or a concession agreement promising to do so later and having first dabs on the next franchise while letting Bennett in 2008), our stupid leaders want to 'stick-it' to Bennett and the NBA like we are 4 your old kids. The analogy above is perfect, Seattle doesn't play with it's toy yet cops a fit when somebody else who'd love to play with it comes in.

I call all of this laughable, and kudos to Oklahoma City. I hope the city uses this as an opportunity to finally improve the image and the city!!!

OKC has gone through lots of improvements and even has civic pride of its own now. The city needs to continue and keep getting better, and use the Sonics and other avenues to enjoy the limelight and build on that success.

[BDP]

BDP, I dont disagree with your sentiments about SF but just because they are finally building a new skyscraper does not necessarily translate into the city being alive or dead. Without the tourism aspect, I'd say both downtown SF and Seattle are dead whereas OKC is improving; perhaps in a few years with residents in downtown SF things might liven up, but I digress.

Liven up? That's weird to hear someone say that. I have friends who live in SF and I visit there every couple of years. The building just doesn't stop and this is only one skyscraper out of many south of market that have recently come online or are being built. SF has gone even more verticle the last few years. I can't imagine anyone who has been there recently calling it dead. It's urban landscape is actaully expanding and growing taller. Many areas that were 'dead' when I was in college are now seeing life brought into them. What's happened and continues to happen just south of San Francisco's financial district is like OKC's little resurgance times 20. It's hard to even compare what's planned in OKC to what's alredy happened and what is planned in SF. That's not to say what's supposed to happen in OKC isn't great, but it has already happened in parts of SF and continues to expand. I just hope that we can have that kind of development in OKC when and if these initial smaller projects are a success. Again, if SF is dead and needs livening up, OKC is in real trouble.

[CCOKC]

Hot Rod, can you tell me what the season ticket sales are for the Sonics this year? I have heard before that they are some of the worst in the NBA. If this is true the fans need to show their support with their own dollars and stop whining that the rich owners need to build them (the citezens of Seattle) a new arena. As I have stated before, in a typical year an NBA team will only use the arena for 41 regular season games, a handful of preseason games and hopefully some playoff games. That makes a nice base for an arena but certainly does not make sense to spend that much money for one tenant.

[Intrepid]

Hot Rod, can you tell me what the season ticket sales are for the Sonics this year? I have heard before that they are some of the worst in the NBA. If this is true the fans need to show their support with their own dollars and stop whining that the rich owners need to build them (the citezens of Seattle) a new arena. As I have stated before, in a typical year an NBA team will only use the arena for 41 regular season games, a handful of preseason games and hopefully some playoff games. That makes a nice base for an arena but certainly does not make sense to spend that much money for one tenant.

Here's a link to the ticket prices:

SONICS: Season Tickets

[CCOKC]

It's hard to tell from that how many season tickets have been sold although it does seem that there are a lot of good seats still available in the lower bowl. That tickets were completely sold out in OKC. The prices seemed like they were a little higher in Seattle although it is hard to tell because the arena is configured differently.

[HOT ROD]

Hot Rod, can you tell me what the season ticket sales are for the Sonics this year? I have heard before that they are some of the worst in the NBA. If this is true the fans need to show their support with their own dollars and stop whining that the rich owners need to build them (the citezens of Seattle) a new arena. As I have stated before, in a typical year an NBA team will only use the arena for 41 regular season games, a handful of preseason games and hopefully some playoff games. That makes a nice base for an arena but certainly does not make sense to spend that much money for one tenant.

cc, I honestly dont know. I am not a season tix holder and I don't want to inquire either. I dont want to give Seattle any edge on this, esp since I am from OKC. I think you could peruse the NBA however and determine the season tix ranges online tho.

Sorry cc but I think you understand. wink wink

As for the amount sold, I think the Sonics have sold more than the Hornets did but certainly well below 10,000 (probably more like 7,000). I dont know for sure, but I am very aware that there was a HUGE drop from past years and you'd figure that if the Sonics are forced to stay two more years - they'd probably have lower sales than the Hornets (like less than 5,000). ... For that reason alone, I hope that Bennett/OKC wins this OR the NBA will adjust Seattle's home games - I really dont like what 'my city' is doing regarding the Sonics. ...

[Kerry]

Judging from the postings on the Seattle Times forum, Sonics fans are starting to resign to the fact the Sonics are leaving Seattle. There was a lot of initial reaction to the relocation filing but that has almost died down completley. They are down to about 3 or 4 locals, 2 guys from LA and one from Louisville, KY that are still upset. The rest of the poster either went away or have said they hope the Sonics leave soon.

The first sign that they were giving up is when they started posting all of the consiparcy theories like the team losing on purpose, Clay and Stern were college roommates, Stern doesn't want the team to leave so he will offer Bennett an expansion team, the city will take them by eminit domain, and on and on and on. My favorite though was when a guy from San Fran called the most liberal politican in the Washingon legislature a right-wing nut job because he said NBA players were over-paid. Priceless.

The sad part is they don't know who to be mad at - the governor, the mayor, Clay, Stern, the head coach, fans that are still buying tickets, fans that aren't buying tickets. Some want to build a new arena while others say the Key is fine, while others say Seattle needs a new arena but they won't support it with current team ownership in place. I kind of feel sorry for them because they now appear so pathetic.

[HOT ROD]

Wasn't there supposed to be an announcement by now regarding the review committee?

I thought, per the NBA rules, that Stern is required to form a relocation committee within 10 days of an owner's filing. Then within 120 days, the relocation committee does an assessment of the 'new city' and makes a recommendation to the NBA board, which would then vote.

Clay filed on November 2, so Stern had until Nov 12 to form a committee. This should have been done and I'd suspect there'd be an announcement. I guess they dont HAVE to announce it; but I would think it would at least be leaked out.

120 days from Nov 12 is March 11. I want to know where this is as I don't want to give any other chance to something being worked out here. I wish the city would drop the suit for the Key lease and try to get the NBA to return later (resurrecting the Sonics).

[Kerry]

Did Clay say he filed on Nov 2nd or did he "informed owners he was going to file"?

[metro]

Wasn't there supposed to be an announcement by now regarding the review committee?

I thought, per the NBA rules, that Stern is required to form a relocation committee within 10 days of an owner's filing. Then within 120 days, the relocation committee does an assessment of the 'new city' and makes a recommendation to the NBA board, which would then vote.

Clay filed on November 2, so Stern had until Nov 12 to form a committee. This should have been done and I'd suspect there'd be an announcement. I guess they dont HAVE to announce it; but I would think it would at least be leaked out.

120 days from Nov 12 is March 11. I want to know where this is as I don't want to give any other chance to something being worked out here. I wish the city would drop the suit for the Key lease and try to get the NBA to return later (resurrecting the Sonics).

As Kerry said, I don't think he filed on Nov. 2nd, I think he just publicly announced that he is going to file.

[HOT ROD]

Well, if you look at any article - all of them say he filed on Nov 2. They even use the past tense on the verb file.

It doesn't take much to file by the way, you just submit it to Stern.

[glennp]

We have all been blamed and accused of being the Armpit of America by the Seattle Washington's forum. Everyone in Seattle HATES Bennett and the new ownership, so we are all bashed as OKIE's being seen as trailer trash and a weak city.

If you want check out the forum it is Seattle Times Forum .

[betts]

If I were from Seattle, I wouldn't want one single person from Oklahoma City to post on my message board or forum. I'd be plenty upset about my inability, as one individual, to keep my team there, especially if I supported building a new arena. So, I don't pay too much attention to negative stuff said about Oklahoma City in Seattle. That's just anger talking, and message board behavior where you can post anonymously.

[soonerfan21]

Commentary from Orlando Sentinel's Mike Bianchi - OUCH!!!

Orlando Magic's ownership shines compared to demands made by SuperSonics' owners
Mike Bianchi

SPORTS COMMENTARY

November 14, 2007

It's become cool and trendy during the venue debate for critics to continually portray the Magic's ownership as greedy, grouchy billionaires who will stop at nothing to get the public to pay for their new arena.

Most of the bashers, though, know little about how professional sports work. If they did, they wouldn't paint the Magic as unscrupulous penny-pinchers; they would portray them as charitable philanthropists.

If you want proof, you need to look no further than the Magic's opponent Tuesday night -- the winless and woebegone Seattle SuperSonics, whose new owner Clay Bennett callously announced a few days ago that he intends to move the team to Oklahoma City. Compared to Seattle's demanding and dastardly band of money-grubbers, Magic ownership looks like emergency workers delivering food to Rwandan refugees.

Let's review how the two ownership groups have gone about trying to get new arenas built in their respective cities. We'll start with Orlando:

The Magic waited patiently for years and made many concessions during the negotiating process to finally get their arena deal done. When they were asked to chip in additional funding for the project, they responded by contributing more money than any team ever has from a comparably sized market. When they were asked to take care of all cost overruns, they agreed. When they were asked to foot the bill to build the arena to eco-friendly specifications, they acquiesced.

To prove it wasn't all about them, the Magic pledged $10 million to help build a new performing arts center. When Orange County had a fiscal crisis during negotiations, the Magic stepped forward and pledged millions to build five new community gymnasiums that otherwise would have been sliced from the budget.

And not once during the entire process did the Magic publicly threaten to relocate the franchise. We speculated in the media about it, but never once did the Magic issue an ultimatum to local politicians. Throughout the process, the Magic's chief negotiator Alex Martins never played hardball and kept saying over and over again, "We just want to do what's right for the community."

And now let's look at the course of action Seattle's owners took when they purchased the Sonics a little more than a year ago. Almost the first words from their mouths were threatening. They immediately set a one-year deadline for getting an arena deal done or else they were moving.

Bennett and his group didn't make proposals so much as they made demands. Bennett unilaterally declared the new building would likely cost more than $500 million and become the most expensive arena in the country.

Not only that, but he wasn't sure how much the team would kick in. As you might expect, local and state politicians scoffed at Bennett's hastily concocted and clumsily negotiated plan.

And, sure enough, two weeks ago -- one day before the new season was to start -- Bennett's one-year deadline came to pass. And he immediately announced he would begin the process of moving the team to his home state of Oklahoma. It's starting to look more and more like that was Bennett's intention all along.

He doesn't care if the SuperSonics are Seattle's most successful and storied franchise. Or that the team has 40 years of history and heritage and Hall-of-Famers. Or that the league will suffer greatly if a franchise moves from one of its most cultured and cosmopolitan markets to . . . Oklahoma City! Good Lord, this is like the Rockettes leaving Radio City Music Hall for their new permanent home at the Mystery Dinner Theater on I-Drive.

"You feel for all those fans who have built up allegiances and who have been following the franchise since they were kids," Magic Coach Stan Van Gundy says.

"It's sad," says Magic forward Rashard Lewis, who spent nine years playing in Seattle. "It's hard for me to imagine Seattle without the Sonics."

So remember this next time you get the urge to rip the Magic for being stingy, selfish Scrooges. Yes, in the perfect world, sports owners would foot the entire bill for new arenas, but that's not how it works in the real world. In the real world, if one city doesn't build the team a new arena, another one will. Like Las Vegas or Louisville or Kansas City or Oklahoma City.

Instead of disparaging the Magic maybe it's time to start appreciating them.

In the realm of sports, you can do worse than being an NBA fan in Orlando.

A lot worse.

You could be hopeless in Seattle.

[betts]

I think the response is pretty simple. Why should Clay Bennett contribute more of his own money, since he's already spent $350 million, to build an arena in a city at best four hours away from his home? If he's going to lose money on a team, or spend more than he's already spent, he might as well do it at home. Philanthropy is most satisfying when it's done in your own community. And if I were Clay Bennett, I wouldn't be feeling very philanthropic towards Seattle.

[soonerfan21]

I don't know the history behind the Orlando ownership, but it sounded to me like Bianchi was trying to shift some heat off the Magic over to Bennett. Crybabies!

[glennp]

Here is just my thoughts...

Clay Bennett is so use to politics here. He has city and state politicians kissing his feet because of the money he has. (I HAVE ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT IS WRONG). He is not the only one I understand that Audry McClendon is in that picture too.

IT is going to COST US money as well. WE are going to have to build a new arena to support the SONICS when they move here.

So has Clay already said he would upfront the majority of cost of this new arena? I am not ready to pay for a new arena from a tax increase. MAPS III is suppose to work towards a mass transit system and trolley district. I would like to see all that completed before getting this team.

Again just my thoughts.

[HOT ROD]

what you dont understand tho, is clay will probably step in (along with the other owners) and cover whatever it takes to make OKC successful. That is because they are SOLID owners based in OKC. You can't ask for a better relationship than that.

Seattle should have realized this and either build an arena (which I wont vote for, I hate the Sonics) or let them go and get as much as we can. But NO...... we have idiots who actually thought Bennett bought the team to keep it here. PLEASE.

And now these same idiots are stringing out the inevitable to save face more than anything. There wont be an arena deal here and as soon as we realized that we should have sat down with Bennett instead of having the same posture that the city did with past owners. I mean, Bennett aint from here (Seattle), that should have been a HUGE clue.

If nothing else, we could have retired the name, got $50M in concession, and a promise from the NBA that the NEXT franchise to move/relocate will do so to Seattle (and resurrect the Sonics). But Nooooo, we have this fiasco.

I dont care, I can't wait for the Sonics to leave town. Im sure they will be successful in OKC. Seattle isn't a 3 pro team market and never was (one team was always the lame duck). Now that's the truth!

[Kerry]

This is why Sports writers shouldn't comment on things outside their realm of knowledge - it just makes them look stupid. If this dumbass had been paying attention for the last 4 years he would know that the previous owners tried everything they could to get a new arena in Seattle and the City of Seattle told then no EVERY TIME. Bennett wasn't brought in to try and work a deal - he was brought in to move the team - period. Giving Seattle an extra year to save the team was bonus time. The only other buyer that made an offer on the team was going to move them San Jose on the day of sale.

The people of Seattle don't want a new arena because they say The Key is only 12 years and they shouldn't have to replace an arena every 12 years. They are right - they shouldn't. But that means you have to do it right the first time, or you will have to do it again. The Key was a bad design from the beginning and it should have never been built as it is.

Let me give you an example. When our first child was born we had a Mitsuibishi Eclipse sports car. It isn't the best car for transporting a baby in a car seat so we traded it in on what we BOTH AGREED would be a more appropriate vehicle, a Ford Escort. It had more room, better gas mileage, 4 doors, and a bigger trunk. It was better than the Eclipse in every way. Four months after buying it we realized we bought the wrong car. The Escort just wasn't big enough to haul all of the stuff that went with the baby - especially if we went to see the grandparents. So after 6 months we traded it in - negative equity and all - on a mini van. Yes it would have been cheaper to just buy the van in the first place but we tried to take a short cut and paid the price. This is exactly what Seattle did with the Key Arena. Now they are getting burned.

[soonerfan21]

I don't claim to be an economist, but all of the MAPS programs have proven that if the citizens of OKC will spend $$$ WE will receive huge benefits. You will have to forgive my lack of exact #'s, but the original MAPS plan has already exceeded the predictions by an overwhelming percent by the return on dollars invested.

Bringing an NBA team (as shown by the Hornets) will show the rest of the country what we already know. OKC is a first-class city with the facilities and people to make the team a success.

[Kerry]

You are correct Soonerfan21. I read a few weeks ago that private investment tied to the original $350 million public money is somewhere around $2 billion. I don't recall if the article said how they got to that number.