What's happening at Sheridian and Hudson?

[jbrown84]

The area that is the current galleria "parking deck" is big enough for 3 Oklahoma Towers, so there is certainly room for a Devon tower AND a large hotel.

Metro has a point, and I don't know that it works as a convention hotel, but certainly a large Omni or Hyatt Regency would be great there overlooking the Myriad gardens with a view all the way down to the river.

[jbrown84]

About replacing the Black, the garage, and the smaller buildings for a 40-50 story drop-dead gorgeous Devon skyscraper that could be the new marque signature building for Okc (should such a thing be in the cards), as for me, I'd say go for it!

But why tear anything down when there's a freaking PARKING DECK across the street with a footprint the size of the Ford Center?

[okclee]

I don't think anyone will be tearing anything down. I think Jbrown you are right if Devon were to build it will be across the street at the galleria location previous mentioned.

I believe precor is just buying the properties betting that Devon will be across the street.

[Doug Loudenback]

But why tear anything down when there's a freaking PARKING DECK across the street with a footprint the size of the Ford Center?

A "freaking parking deck?" I'd say that it's a pretty nice one!

Kidding aside, I have no clue of the dynamics involved here ... public/private property ... nor do I have I any idea that Devon is/might be/might come to be thinking about the sugar plum that danced in my head ... but while I'd agree that the best of all possible worlds would be to leave the Black alone (I'd have no or little reluctance about the others going) ...

... IF it came down to an either/or choice, I'd opt for the sugar plum.

[jbrown84]

A "freaking parking deck?" I'd say that it's a pretty nice one!

I'm not talking about the new above ground garage, I'm talking about the original Pei-era garage that doesn't go above ground level.


Lose that or lose 4 or 5 of the few remaining pre-Urban Renewal buildings????

[stlokc]

I hate to throw cold water on all of this, because God knows Oklahoma City would look bigger and more impressive if Devon threw up a splashy new headquarters tower. But I just have to ask: Would that really be "good" for Downtown? How much space in existing, older buildings would Devon be vacating? That is space that would be hard to fill, and what would that do to the already-very-high office vacancy rate? is spreading the existing downtown workforce out over a wider space going to help density?

Again, don't get me wrong, I would love to see a new feature on the skyline. But I would feel much more comfortable if it was a brand-new company relocating from suburbs or out of state, or, conversely, a mixed-use hotel/residential/office tower (15 stories of each) or something like that.

Again, all this is academic until somebody announces something.

[Doug Loudenback]

I'm not talking about the new above ground garage, I'm talking about the original Pei-era garage that doesn't go above ground level.

Lose that or lose 4 or 5 of the few remaining pre-Urban Renewal buildings????

As stlokc reminded, this is all academic speculation anyway. But ... the parking area I think you are talking about is at the NE corner of Hudson & Sheridan, across the street east of the "Black" ... that's not just a surface lot but has lower levels (at least 1 ... I've never been down there) and the underground parking is interconnected. I've no idea of what would need to be done with regard to the interrelated parking areas, were any building to be built in that space. As for other-than-the-Black buildings which would be involved, I've already said what I think about that. I don't see them as worth keeping if some much better replacement comes along. A vintage parking garage, single-level theater (I don't know its original use), and one or two old (what amounts to) rooming houses (one was sometimes called the Wren Hotel) I don't see as a deal-breaker.

As to your point, stlokc, sure, in the best of all possible worlds, a new company would build ... but since it is widely (if inaccurately) speculated that Devon is looking to build, unless Okc (like Seattle in the Sonics context) has a "White Knight" drop into the downtown market, any new skyscraper in downtown is more likely to be Devon than anyone else, I think. Of course and as you said, this is all pipe dreaming until something actually emerges.

[jbrown84]

That issue has been discussed at length stlokc. In fact Devon has gone on record saying that that is a major concern they have before building a new tower.

But with Sandridge now occupying the former KMG tower and American Fidelity looking to move downtown, combined with the new synergy that a Devon tower would create, I wouldn't worry about it. Keep in mind the vacant spaces downtown are vacant because they are Class B & C. The spaces Devon would be leaving are Class A and would fill up quickly.

[Pete]

I believe precor is just buying the properties betting that Devon will be across the street.

Yes, and a wise move. They must believe the Devon Tower thing is more than just a rumor.

My bet is he converts the parking garage into lofts and may scrape the Carpenter Building. Seems like there is a higher and better use for the that property.


BTW, hotels, unlike office towers, tend to have a pretty big footprint. I'm still worried we may be sacrificing a great hotel location when an office building could go anywhere.

Plus, should OKC provide public property to a private corporation to build office space? A hotel is sorely needed, especially one on a large scale. But an office building wouldn't impact our economy so directly.

[stlokc]

MalibuSooner...In a philosophically pure world, I would share your hesitation to endorse the city giving land to a private company. But in this day and age, that is the kind of thing that gets deals done in struggling urban areas. And I would argue that a full office building would impact the economy a lot more directly than a hotel would...you could have thousands of paying jobs (many of them high-paying) in a downtown office tower. Of course if it is just shifting around workforce that is already downtown...I don't know...but I won't belabor that point anymore. Although I am a little skeptical that the current Devon space would "fill quickly" just because it is Class A, I will prefer to share JBrown's optimism.

[jbrown84]

No one said the city has to hand over that land--whether it be to Devon or to a hotel developer.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Just a thought (I know nothing about any of this)....But we're going to need a very nice, and very large hotel for visiting NBA teams downtown, right?

[BG918]

The convention hotel will go at the SE corner of Robinson and the new blvd., according to Core to Shore. It will be connected to a new convention center just to the east with frontage along the new blvd. across from the Ford Center. Mixed-use residential will line Robinson facing the park next to the convention center which could go as far as SW 6th depending on how big it is (some are saying 1+ million SF). Hudson and Sheridan is PERFECT for the new Devon Tower.

[BG918]

I hate to throw cold water on all of this, because God knows Oklahoma City would look bigger and more impressive if Devon threw up a splashy new headquarters tower. But I just have to ask: Would that really be "good" for Downtown? How much space in existing, older buildings would Devon be vacating? That is space that would be hard to fill, and what would that do to the already-very-high office vacancy rate? is spreading the existing downtown workforce out over a wider space going to help density?

Again, don't get me wrong, I would love to see a new feature on the skyline. But I would feel much more comfortable if it was a brand-new company relocating from suburbs or out of state, or, conversely, a mixed-use hotel/residential/office tower (15 stories of each) or something like that.

Again, all this is academic until somebody announces something.

Devon building a new tower and moving everyone from multiple downtown buildings frees up smaller companies from the suburbs and out-of-state to move downtown. The skyline is already impressive but a new tower would really set it apart. Throw in a new highrise convention hotel and we're on par with some of the biggest cities.

[HOT ROD]

Malibu, I have to disagree with your claim that a hotel takes up more floorprint than an office tower. Office towers have the largest footprint of any highrise in constuction, this due to maximize sq ft (since you have to put in lots of elevators, residentials dont need as many).

As for the Devon tower, I also think the 'deck' area of the galleria site is preferred, and preferably the SW corner. I'd like to see a new hotel or a mixed use hotel/condo tower on the SE corner; both overlooking the Myriad Gardens and opening downtown up to the west.

I also prefer Devon's tower to be tall, taller than the 600 feet of Tulsa's BOK Tower and more floors than Tulsa's Gold tower; Say 63 stories @ 700 feet (11+ FSR and 1.05M sq ft). I think this total space is about as much as they are occupying in Chase, First National, and Mid America when combined plus gives them room to expand or lease.

These dimensions would give OKC all of the state records (tallest, most floors, largest single tower) and would only be 198 feet taller than Cox. Also, in the location of SW Galleria @ Hudson/Sheridan, the tower would look very impressive from the West without drowning the rest of downtown from other directions (say, the east or North) where it would actually blend in.

Also, as for the vacated Devon space it is all class A (perhaps the First National isnt but I suspect that is where they have their servers, so no need for class A for that). So, you'd figure that 500,000 sq feet of class A space would EASILY be absorbed in downtown OKC; as was said - its the B and especially C space that is hard for downtown to absorb. I suspect American Fidelity would take on most of the class A space (probably moving into Mid America altogether) once Devon vacates, that would leave Chase - who wouldn't want to move into OKC's tallest signature leasible downtown tower (or second if Devon choses not to be owner occupied).

Like I said, I hope this is in the cards and we go tall!!! Hopefully also, there might be some other corporation (home grown or imported) who might also desire a tower downtown [Dell, AT&T, Northrup Grumman???] where we could get another owner occupied or class A leasible tall one or two. That would 'complete' downtown OKC from a CBD prospective and move OKC UP quite a bit in the ranks of big city downtowns, with the entertainment and retail additions making up the rest of the ranks where additions are needed/would be forthcoming.

Imagine a 700 foot Devon tower sparkling reflective glass with simple FAA beacon lights on the top, at the SW corner of Galleria.... Imagine driving in from the West from WRWA and seeing this dominate an already dense/impressive downtown!!!

That would surely improve OKC's world/national image! GO DEVON (use those profits)

[russellc]

"and would only be 198 feet taller than Cox."
????????????? What Cox?

[metro]

yeah that part got me too russell? Are they talking the Cox Convention Center? If so that makes no sense at all.

[HOT ROD]

Sorry, I meant Chase.

[hipsterdoofus]

I don't care about the other 2 buildings but I wish someone would do something with that area on Main & Hudson....its kind of an eyesore for being "Main" street...lots of empty space in there.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Malibu, I have to disagree with your claim that a hotel takes up more floorprint than an office tower. Office towers have the largest footprint of any highrise in constuction, this due to maximize sq ft (since you have to put in lots of elevators, residentials dont need as many).

And I need to disaggree with you claim that an office tower has a larger footprint. It is true that the actually TOWER of an office buildings has a larger continous footprint than a hotel, however you neglect to realize that the support functions, meeting rooms, and other spaces make up a spread-out base that has a quite a large footprint.

And hotels need more elevators than residential towers due to large simultaneous movements of people, especially in convention hotels.

I also prefer Devon's tower to be tall, taller than the 600 feet of Tulsa's BOK Tower and more floors than Tulsa's Gold tower; Say 63 stories @ 700 feet (11+ FSR and 1.05M sq ft). I think this total space is about as much as they are occupying in Chase, First National, and Mid America when combined plus gives them room to expand or lease.

It would only need to have 47 stories to reach 700 feet. Modern office towers have 15 feet floor-to-floor.

[JOHNINSOKC]

As I was driving over the Shields bridge approaching downtown this morning, I was trying to imagine what the skyline would look like with a new Devon tower in the location that we are speculating about, and it occurred to me that it would really open up the west side of downtown for more towers. It wouldn't look odd like the Bank of America tower does in Charlotte because it wouldn't tower over every building immediately surrounding it. Since our downtown area will be expanding, I can see a few high rise condominiums or hotels filling in the space between a new signature office tower and the current skyline. I really hope we hear something about this possible Devon tower very soon. It's like a child having to wait another year for Santa Claus to come. Any thoughts??

[Pete]

A decent sized convention hotel would need every bit of what remains at the Galleria lot. They need large, contiguous spaces that can be broken up into smaller rooms or joined together for big events. And first-class hotels have large, elaborate lobbies that require a large scale.

And although Core to Shore shows a large hotel near the proposed convention center, We'll certainly need more than one anyway.

With all the un- and under-developed properties in the CBD I simply don't see why we need to waste this prime piece or property that was specifically cleared and set aside for uses that would benefit the whole community. We've already wasted most of it due to lack of foresight and merely putting another office building there would not be the highest and best use, especially when you consider it would be the only development to date that would really take advantage of the proximity to the Myriad Gardens (a woefully underutilized asset IMO).

[FritterGirl]

Yes, but I thought the Core to Shore plan called for the convention hotel / tower (actually two of them) to be south of the Myriad Botanical Gardens, this is assuming they move the convention center south of the current Ford center space.

There's a meeting coming up in another week or two, so we'll get the "final" schematic at that time.

[Kerry]

Hotel - office tower - residential tower: at this point I don't care any more. Just build something. It isn't like downtown OKC is having to beat developers off with a stick for the past 30 years. I'll take what I can get. I just looked out my window here in Atlanta and I can see no less than 30 high-rise construction cranes from downtown to Buckhead. I know OKC is not Atlanta, but at this point we aren't even Omaha.

[HOT ROD]

Cuatro.

I stated that office towers are larger in footprint than hotel/residential, this is a fact. You stated that convention centers are larger, which is true - but that isn't the hotel. Office footprints are typically 15,000 sq feet and sometimes get up to 30,000 sq ft; Residentials are usually 10,000 sq feet, hotels somewhere inbetween.

Also, I stated that OKC needs the Devon tower to take the tallest titles away from Tulsa. And I stated that with an FSR of 11 or so, Devon could take both titles (tallest and most number of floors) away with a tower (700 feet, 63 floors, 1.05M+ sq ft)

- that wouldn't be too much taller than Chase (IE it wont dwarf everything else in downtown or look out-of-proportion except on direct approach of the tower itself)
- as was mentioned, the Galleria (SW locn) opens up West Downtown to CBD expansion
- having such a tower would maximize the floorspace for Devon such that they'd probably never need another tower if they chose to be owner occupied

Oh, by the way

Actually, most office towers are roughly 12.5 feet per floor (usually at least 10 FSR). Our Own Chase tower (504 feet, 36 floors) is odd in that it has 14 FSR - which is LARGE and unnecessarily uses Steel.

BOK in Tulsa (the state's tallest) is 12.8 FSR, if Chase had the same it would have 39 floors (or 40 floors with the typical 12.5 FSR). BOK would lose 5 floors (only have 47) if it used our Chase's 14 FSR.

Most OKC towers have really high FSRs. If they used the typical office FSR, OKC would have towers with more floors.

Other examples:

OKC
FNC 13.5 FSR
City Place 13 1/3 FSR
Oklahoma Tower 14 FSR
KMG 13.1 FSR
Valliance 14.59 FSR (a big mofo)
Bank of Oklahoma 19.375 FSR (a huge mofo)
Leadership 14 FSR
Regency 12 FSR
Founders 13.75 FSR
Colcord 10.3 FSR

TUL
Citiplex 10.8 FSR
First Place 12.9 FSR
Mid-Continent 14.25 FSR
BOA 12.875 FSR
320 S Boston 18.18 FSR (big mofo)

Chicago
Chicago Spire (u/c) (2000 feet, 150 floors) 13 1/3 FSR *(will be tallest structure in N/A and 2nd tallest in world [after Burg Dubai] and tallest residential in world)
Sears (1454 feet, 108 floors; if antenna included would be 1780 feet) 13.4 FSR *tallest tower in N/A
Trump International Hotel and Tower (1362 feet, 96 floors) 14 FSR
Waldorf=Astoria (1265 feet, 107 floors) 11.8 FSR
AAON (1136 feet, 83 floors) 13.6 FSR
John Hancock 'Big John' (1127 feet, 100 floors; if antenna included would be 1300 feet) 11.3 FSR

Los Angeles
Library Square (1018 feet, 73 floors) 13.9 FSR
AON (858 ft 62 floors) 13.8 FSR

Houston
Chase (1,002 ft, 75 floors) 13.36 FSR
Wells Fargo (992 ft, 71 floors) 13.97 FSR
Williams (901 ft, 64 floors) 14 FSR *tallest suburban tower in the world


Seattle
Columbia Center (936 feet, 76 floors) 12.32
WAMU (772 feet, 55 floors) 14 FSR
2 Union Sq 13.2 FSR

Dallas
BOA Plaza (921 feet, 72 floors) 12.79 FSR
Renaissance [JR EWING building] (886 feet, 56 floors) 15.8 FSR