State Fairgrounds

[Bill Robertson]

Probably a combination of both.

If we had a situation where there was an amusement park operating year round during good weather seasons where they incorporated the Space Tower and Monorail, you would have seen a more vibrant State Fair of Oklahoma. The speedway was too noisy to keep on site. You could hear the stock cars within a 10-12 mile radius.

If Frontier City were to relocate to the Fairgrounds (IMO) they could reap the benefits. This would justify building a new 500' Space Tower and Monorail operating 9 months a year.

IMO, there's still time to do something to make upgrades and have an annual 10 day September Fair (Autumn) and smaller 5 day Fair in April (Spring) with something like an April Fools theme. The Fairgrounds IMO is underutilized for the amount of acreage OKC has available.

OKC wants to keep those Equine events & shows in our community; the economic impact is too great to let them go elsewhere. Guthrie's Lazy E took one of those events. The new 4,500 (hair back) seat coliseum provides just enough room to not feel the emptiness of a 14,000 seat FW Dickies Arena or an 8,500 seat OKC Fairgrounds Arena.

As for the return of Ice Hockey to Oklahoma City, let's see what's on the horizon.

Yeah, the track was loud. However I loved the sound. But if there was one icon that there was justification for tearing down because of waning interest it would be the track. I can't believe I said that!
I can probably count the number of Friday nights on my fingers and toes that I wasn't there in some capacity from the late 60s to when it closed. In the 60s to the 70s there were often car counts well over a hundred. The stands were usually pretty packed too. Then through the 80s car counts dropped because it just got more expensive to race. When the classes were Champ Dirt, Modified and Street Stock it wasn't uncommon to have 10 Champ cars, less than 20 Modifieds and maybe 30 Street Stock. Fewer cars made for fewer fans. Then the promoter started changing classes to attract cars from surrounding states like we had in the heyday. That failed. Car counts were the same or worse. One night I remember well we only had 1 Limited Sprint heat, 1 Late Model heat and 2 Street Stock heats. Then the A-Features. Almost empty stands. It was sad for me. My beloved and once extremely popular track was failing near the end. At least I got a brick when it came down.

[Plutonic Panda]

And gun shows. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a city with as many gun shows as OKC. Good for them as it generates revenue. Why does the prospect of horse shows and have a cultured world class fair grounds with racing grand stands, space needle, arch, and monorail have to be mutually exclusive?

Build a formula one track on the parking lots to the north and demolish the neighborhood north of ne 10 and make the street a tunnel. Build parking garages. Bring professional track racing here to OKC bam new tourist generator. Extend monorail to downtown OKC transit center and airport.

[Laramie]

The Fairgrounds could use a number of things.

Paved parking and a 2,000 space garage--trouble is could you justify spending $30 million on paved parking and a garage, $25 million on a space tower, $10 million on a monorail.

MAPS 4 has $37.5 million for a multi-purpose stadium. Leadership wants the stadium close to the CBD.

Who knows, by 2030 (1.75 million estimated MSA) our city could be looking at MLB, where a venue investment would be no less than $800 million with a relocation/expansion franchise in Bricktown because the current ballpark has an expansion limit of approximately 32,000; less than the recommended 40,000 seats being used in newer stadiums. I know there are cities ahead of OKC for MLB such as Orlando, Charlotte (NFL, NBA), San Antonio, Portland, Austin, Las Vegas (NFL, NHL), Indianapolis (NFL, NBA); however, we have a funding mechanism in place if voters elect to bring MLB to OKC.

Mayor Mick Cornett pushed the idea that OKC-TUL television households show a growing trend that this is a combined TV market.

[Plutonic Panda]

I’d love MLB. I’ve really gotten turned on to baseball but I’ve yet to attend a dodgers game in LA. It looks like a fun time.

[Bill Robertson]

I’d love MLB. I’ve really gotten turned on to baseball but I’ve yet to attend a dodgers game in LA. It looks like a fun time.

You need to go. We go to St Louis at least 2 or 3 weekends a year. And I've been to games in Arlington, Kansas City and Houston. I've loved baseball all my life but I have to say it's a LOT better in person.

[BDP]

Thought Steve had a pretty good article about the degradation of the fairgrounds into nothing but horse shows today https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news...nd/5917537001/

I can't read it, but the horse shows certainly bring in way more money annually than the fair itself ever could. Most economic impact studies put the horse industry at or near the top of all other event industries we have here.

I'm not sure if the removal of fair specific attractions was to facilitate the upgrades in horse facilities, but would be interested to see if the author was able to draw a straight line there. It's possible, but it doesn't make a lot of sense.

There are a lot of problems with how the fairgrounds are run and operated in general, but supporting an important international economic engine for the city isn't a bad thing. Obviously, one may have reservations about publicly funded ventures that disproportionately support a given industry or interest, but we'd have to roll back a ton of spending and policies all over the place to get in line with that philosophy.

I'm not sure why people have the idea these things can't co-exist, but running down the horse shows may prove to not be beneficial to those who want a renaissance of the state fair, because if bigger and better attractions are to be brought back to the 10 day fair event, I'd imagine that revenue generated by all the horse shows would be a good first place to look for funding. The problem is that we don't know much about why or how the fairgrounds leadership does what it does. as it's not very transparent.

[T. Jamison]

And gun shows. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a city with as many gun shows as OKC. Good for them as it generates revenue. Why does the prospect of horse shows and have a cultured world class fair grounds with racing grand stands, space needle, arch, and monorail have to be mutually exclusive?

Build a formula one track on the parking lots to the north and demolish the neighborhood north of ne 10 and make the street a tunnel. Build parking garages. Bring professional track racing here to OKC bam new tourist generator. Extend monorail to downtown OKC transit center and airport.

I dream of the day Oklahoma has more circuit tracks. The only one I can think of is Hallett in Jennings. Thunder Valley in Noble and Tulsa Raceway Park has a pretty decent reputation, and at one time (1958 maybe) NHRA Nationals were held at the fairgrounds. I've become enamored with motorsports over the last 5 years and learned that OKC has a very stout automotive culture with a lot of reputable builders. I just bought a Porsche 944, and shortly thereafter found out that a pretty popular supplier of aftermarket racing parts is located here in OKC. On another forum, I've heard of people from all over shipping blocks and heads to them for work, and probably see someone mention them once a day.

All of that said, I don't know if any of that stuff will return near the Fairgrounds due to noise, though a guy can dream. I do remember hearing at one point, the city was trying to get a Formula E race here in OKC. That would be a good get. Formula E has a pretty broad international audience and doesn't create nearly the noise. In addition, they typically races on city streets instead of a purpose built track.

[Bill Robertson]

I dream of the day Oklahoma has more circuit tracks. The only one I can think of is Hallett in Jennings. Thunder Valley in Noble and Tulsa Raceway Park has a pretty decent reputation, and at one time (1958 maybe) NHRA Nationals were held at the fairgrounds. I've become enamored with motorsports over the last 5 years and learned that OKC has a very stout automotive culture with a lot of reputable builders. I just bought a Porsche 944, and shortly thereafter found out that a pretty popular supplier of aftermarket racing parts is located here in OKC. On another forum, I've heard of people from all over shipping blocks and heads to them for work, and probably see someone mention them once a day.

All of that said, I don't know if any of that stuff will return near the Fairgrounds due to noise, though a guy can dream. I do remember hearing at one point, the city was trying to get a Formula E race here in OKC. That would be a good get. Formula E has a pretty broad international audience and doesn't create nearly the noise. In addition, they typically races on city streets instead of a purpose built track.

Other than humming and tire squeal Formula E is quiet. I'd definitely go to all the related events of a Formula E weekend. And while it's true that F-E races are usually on city streets it could be done on the FG roads. Probably not but it could be done.

[T. Jamison]

Other than humming and tire squeal Formula E is quiet. I'd definitely go to all the related events of a Formula E weekend. And while it's true that F-E races are usually on city streets it could be done on the FG roads. Probably not but it could be done.

Typically, they are running on narrow courses, so it could probably be done on fairground streets. Looking at Google Earth aerial imagery from 9/24/2020, it looks as though they had some sort of race course in the parking lot where the old speedway was. I was wondering what that was, maybe an autocross event? But I've recently been thinking that trying to attract some variety of motorsports to OKC and the fairgrounds seems like an more reasonable proposition than trying to attract a franchise, like MLS, MLB, or NHL. I just don't really have a decent gauge of demand for that sort of thing as I am the only F1/motorsports fan I personally know.

[tvkokc]

Typically, they are running on narrow courses, so it could probably be done on fairground streets. Looking at Google Earth aerial imagery from 9/24/2020, it looks as though they had some sort of race course in the parking lot where the old speedway was. I was wondering what that was, maybe an autocross event? But I've recently been thinking that trying to attract some variety of motorsports to OKC and the fairgrounds seems like an more reasonable proposition than trying to attract a franchise, like MLS, MLB, or NHL. I just don't really have a decent gauge of demand for that sort of thing as I am the only F1/motorsports fan I personally know.

It was probably not an SCCA event as those are usually held at Remington Park. There was talk about a motorsports park at one point but I haven't heard anything lately. It would be great to get an additional track that is similar to Hallet in the metro area, hell even if the Sheriff's training course would open again to events that'd be great. Having grass roots racing is the start and the key, we can't add another F1 stop most likely here in the states and this close.

The issue with the State fair speedway as I recall was that it was going to be quite the undertaking to bring it to ADA compliancy and they didn't want to fund that. I personally never had a problem with the noise but I grew up building roundy motors with my dad and we're by 10th & Portland. I'm glad to see so many people are really loving F1 with the new Netflix series focusing on the behind the scenes drama but we again need to get a grass roots race course here in the area.

The Porsche shop you're talking about is most likely Lindsay Performance over here by 36th & Portland. Dumont's down town is also a Porsche only shop.

[T. Jamison]

It was probably not an SCCA event as those are usually held at Remington Park. There was talk about a motorsports park at one point but I haven't heard anything lately. It would be great to get an additional track that is similar to Hallet in the metro area, hell even if the Sheriff's training course would open again to events that'd be great. Having grass roots racing is the start and the key, we can't add another F1 stop most likely here in the states and this close.

The Porsche shop you're talking about is most likely Lindsay Performance over here by 36th & Portland. Dumont's down town is also a Porsche only shop.

I am talking about Lindsey. I've already stopped by and met Dave, I believe.

I have no illusions about getting a big act like F1 to OKC. There is no way we can compete with COTA, but it'd be nice to have a place to see grassroot racing other than dirt track or drag racing. Even though, I am grateful that we do have those options. But AFAIK there aren't even any PCA events in OK. That really surprised me. The fairgrounds seems like the most likely public facility that could hold something like that. I just don't know how popular it would be with the neighbors. Fingers crossed though.

[tvkokc]

To be fair, I'm not happy with the poop smells that linger from the horse shows or the stockyards. If it's weekend racing not scaring the livestock, they should be able to deal!

[Bill Robertson]

Typically, they are running on narrow courses, so it could probably be done on fairground streets. Looking at Google Earth aerial imagery from 9/24/2020, it looks as though they had some sort of race course in the parking lot where the old speedway was. I was wondering what that was, maybe an autocross event? But I've recently been thinking that trying to attract some variety of motorsports to OKC and the fairgrounds seems like an more reasonable proposition than trying to attract a franchise, like MLS, MLB, or NHL. I just don't really have a decent gauge of demand for that sort of thing as I am the only F1/motorsports fan I personally know.

9/24/20 was an autocross event. I don't do them but I'm in couple Miata groups and hear about them.

[HOT ROD]

Exactly, there's always a negative to anything but the Fair Icons were just that - OKC Icons of history and lore. Yet they were removed WITHOUT A VOTE OR NOTICE TO THE PEOPLE OF OKC!! That to me is the real issue and not that the cars were loud because yes the smell is even worse (so therefore we should get rid of the horseshows?). Both should have been able to coexist - it's what makes other fairs nationwide unique and exciting (old + new, "ag" + modern: in one setting) and is what USED TO make OKC's fair one of the top in the nation. Now, it's an afterthought IMO; not even worth considering if it weren't for the food (which itself has also been significantly downsized).

[Laramie]

Source: Oklahoman, November 14, 2021

[HOT ROD]

$100M annual impact. ... so why?? are they needing money from MAPS?

And don't give me that crap about the Thunder, the Fair has received WAY more money from MAPS and other municipal funding mechanisms than the Thunder yet contribute FAR less than the Thunder to the city's economic impact be it monetary or image/social not to mention the experience itself. ...

Not saying the fair shouldn't be supported but I am asking why they keep getting blank cheques from the city with comparably minimal return when considering the Thunder, the Zoo, or other venues that contribute far more and are held accountable.

[Miracle121]

Source: Oklahoman, November 14, 2021

If the horse shows are making that much money, (which I doubt) then build them new facilities or give us a new fairgrounds. We need multipurpose facilities at the Fairgrounds not more horse barns. Move the horse shows to the stock yard area were they belong. The fairboard needs to have open meetings and share financial news with the general public. Maybe its time to get rid of the fairboard all together and have the city mangers office oversee the fairgrounds. The fairgrounds are moving in the wrong direction now, we need to change direction and get it moving for people and not horses.

[Plutonic Panda]

Clearly the current board that oversees the fairgrounds does some good by the money they bring to the city but there needs to be a rewrite of the contract or agreement between them and the city. Do that and create a special MAPS for the fairgrounds that restores the original monuments. I drove through the fairgrounds and walked around the other and it was pathetic. So boring and bland.

[Laramie]

Obviously, there's always going to be a debate about economic impact and the direct spending amount regarding room nights associated with the horse shows.

IIRC we had this vision that the State Fair Board's wasn't open; this information is somewhere on the city's website. The Oklahoma State Fair Board doesn't hoard a treasure trove of money; however the horse shows impact the city's economic well being. The next time you're driving on the expressway north on I-44 from I-40 look over at the fairgrounds and you'll see a sea of tailors where All Sports Stadium use to be--this goes on year round. We don't need to move anything to the Stockyards. The Meridian Hotel Corridor welcomes these travelers and tourists as does other hotels throughout our city.

OKC doesn't need a $600 million (14,000 seat) Dixie's Arena to accommodate what these horse participants want from our city or the would have left for Funky-Cowtown long ago. Build on what we have here with a huge 435 acre fairgrounds. Get the new State Fair Coliseum built ASAP.

We do need to address getting back some of those ICONIC STRUCTURES (Space Tower, Monorail...) that once made the Oklahoma State Fair worth a visit. Are we willing to invest $20 million on a 500-600 foot Space Tower and who knows what on a monorail.

Texas State Fair, Dallas



Top o' Texas Tower: 500 feet, Construction Cost $12 million (Opened in 2011)

Now what do you want to spend on a monorail...

[Laramie]

Just want to mention that the new arena isn't equipped to handle most of the OSSAA State Basketball tournaments. The new state fair coliseum can seat 5,000 maximum for high school basketball with extension bleachers. Look for the college campuses like OU (Lloyd Noble 11,500) or Oral Roberts (Current host for 5A, 6A, 11,300) to be more accommodating toward these events.

Don't speak for the city; however this doesn't seem to be in the city's wheel house. Does these tournaments bring in a lot of tourists revenue or are they more of a break-even host that's a drain on the local law enforcement funds and personnel.

As for the return of AA ice hockey--would you drive to the Fairgrounds to renew the Tulsa & Wichita rivalry in an arena that could seat 4,500 maximum. The City has no flavor to accommodate ice hockey on the AA level.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news; you'd have a better chance of reclaiming the 13,997 seat arena in Prairie Surf Studios downtown or building an ice rink inside the 7,000 capacity Lazy-E Arena in Guthrie.

[Dob Hooligan]

I think the State Fair Board is neither greedy or corrupt. The people I know of who are members are leading citizens. It is, IMO, a very quiet group. I have been told that is on purpose.

I think the Gaylord legacy is still strong with the Fairgrounds. E.K and E.L. were huge boosters of the State Fair, and the family still has a large and direct role in management. They want what is best for the city. But, the Gaylords have worked hard to be low key over the last 50 years. Sometimes a lifetime devoted to civic leadership can make people want to get to the point and minimize distractions.

My business has been 2 blocks from the Fairgrounds for almost 40 years. They are busy 50 weeks a year. I have looked at, been in and around, and/or ridden all the items that were removed and are being lamented here. I can say the airplanes were crumbling; the trains were rusting away; the Goodholm mansion was naturally decaying; the Space Needle and monorail were both old, hot and dirty when operating, and I mean natural dirty that requires lots of money to restore. The Speedway just flat out didn't draw flies anymore. The noise never bother me and I was probably closer than the 7-11 was. But most weeks it drew under 200 fans. All Sport Stadium was a post war concrete block structure that was painfully limited.

But, drive by it any evening at 8PM in November 1993, and there were few places on earth that were more beautiful when the arena and all other attractions were fully lit.

[Plutonic Panda]

So why does the board operate in secrecy then?

[Plutonic Panda]

Now what do you want to spend on a monorail...

My monorail system would be a spine for tourist. Airport-State Fair-Union Station-Bricktown-State Capitol-Adventure District. Transfers to the citywide public transit system would be made at a stop on a future extension of the streetcar to capitol hill via Robinson.

This is all completed by heavy rail commuter line via spoke and hub system for North and south suburbs, west NW and SW served by real BRT, and the city has a orbital light rail line that forms a giant circle connecting Edmond-NW OKC-YUKON-Mustang-Moore-MWC-Spencer-Jones. MWC also gets rapid streetcar. Inner city suburbs and urban OKC gets served by grade separated light rail via subterranean tunnels or viaduct. Boom there’s your transit system.

Reno gets a bus only lane and serves as a central connector.

Could maybe accomplish all of that for about 20-30 billion. That puts OKC in actual big league status.

[Laramie]

So why does the board operate in secrecy then?

Probably the only way you can get anything done with less scrutiny. Remember how Ron Norick and city leaders crafted MAPS...

[TheTravellers]

... I can say the airplanes were crumbling; the trains were rusting away; the Goodholm mansion was naturally decaying; the Space Needle and monorail were both old, hot and dirty when operating, and I mean natural dirty that requires lots of money to restore. ...

But did they have to be that way? Haven't other cities have maintained their attractions/rides and still have them operating? Aren't they gone from here because of demolition by intentional deferred maintenance ("they" just didn't want to spend the money on them)?