Why is it controversial to call Oklahoma part of the South?

[Bunty]

I believe a major reason why Oklahoma is so Christian conservative is because it was required to enter the union as a dry state for 21 years. At the end of 21 years, it couldn't repeal it, because Prohibition was still in effect. After Prohibition ended, all Oklahoma wanted to do was have 3.2% beer at the most. And that must have attracted yet more Christian conservatives to Oklahoma. But that attraction started waning when legal sale of alcohol was approved in 1959. Finally, in 2018 alcohol laws were significantly reformed to be like most states, so I now I don't think Oklahoma has much to offer Christian conservatives wanting to move in from the outside any more.

My parents were Baptists and hardly ever drank. Their parents came to north central Oklahoma from Kansas and Missouri.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_Enabling_Act

[Isaac C. Parker]

That doesn’t make us part of the south, Pete.

The Southern Baptist faith is a widely-known marker of Southern culture (one of several). It strongly correlates with perceptions of the cultural region that is "the South." Geographically, Oklahoma objectively forms the northwestern corner of this contiguous religious region.

Unsurprisingly, the map of where Southern Baptists live looks an awful lot like the map of where Southern Accents are found historically, which looks a lot like the map of where state-mandated Jim Crow laws proliferated, which looks a lot like a map of the Confederate States & claimed Territory, etc. etc. etc.

That's all to say that, yes... it kinda does make Oklahoma part of the South.

[Plutonic Panda]

No it doesn’t.

[Ryan]

No it doesn’t.

Ok. You’re not providing much of a defense though.

[Plutonic Panda]

Ok. You’re not providing much of a defense though.

I already have. There are multiple posts in this thread you can look back on.

[Ryan]

I normally refrain from saying this out loud. I don’t like Oklahoma. I do like the south. I stay here because I have massive student debt. And I can afford to make payments on it. I don’t like to group OK in the south because honestly it’s not cool enough.
I will say that there seems to be a somewhat hostile culture. Quite a lot of anti intellectualism or anti education sentiment. Which doesn’t mean we’re southern but it seems more common here. Probably more due to prevalence of rural culture.
That said I can’t rationalize Oklahoma as Midwestern because of our geography. Our winters are pathetic by Nebraska or Iowa standards. I’ve seen native Sabal Palms and alligators here there are yuccas and cactus covering half the state. Our summers are far more brutal than our winters.
Also according to the us census website we’re south.
And perhaps the Wikipedia could correct this but wasn’t chattel slavery common amongst the tribes here prior to the civil war?If I’m wrong blame my Oklahoma public education and the 25 years it’s been since I took a history class.

[Dob Hooligan]

Oklahoma is a southern state. The 5 Civilized Tribes were slave owners who left their lands in what became the Confederate States so they could do the same in Oklahoma. The 5 Civilized Tribes sided with the Confederacy in the Civil War and fought with the southern forces. The 5 Civilized Tribes were forced to free their slaves after the war and had to make the freed slaves tribal members. This had different resolutions in different tribes. The Tribes lost operational control over the western half of Oklahoma after the Civil War and much of it was given away via land run. Oklahoma is as far south as Confederate States Arkansas, Tennessee and North Carolina. There were no Union States south of Oklahoma.

[GoGators]

Oklahoma is a southern state. The 5 Civilized Tribes were slave owners who left their lands in what became the Confederate States so they could do the same in Oklahoma. The 5 Civilized Tribes sided with the Confederacy in the Civil War and fought with the southern forces. The 5 Civilized Tribes were forced to free their slaves after the war and had to make the freed slaves tribal members. This had different resolutions in different tribes. The Tribes lost operational control over the western half of Oklahoma after the Civil War and much of it was given away via land run. Oklahoma is as far south as Confederate States Arkansas, Tennessee and North Carolina. There were no Union States south of Oklahoma.

By this definition New Mexico and Arizona are southern states as well. I mean both states currently sit on territorial land the confederacy once claimed. They are further south in geography than many confederate states and there were no Union States south of them.

[WheelerD Guy]

As much as I like the prospect of OU joining the SEC, doing so is going to only further cement the national perception that Okla. is a decidedly southern state.

[Dob Hooligan]

By this definition New Mexico and Arizona are southern states as well. I mean both states currently sit on territorial land the confederacy once claimed. They are further south in geography than many confederate states and there were no Union States south of them.

I agree. However, I don't "think" they were as politically aligned with the south, didn't share agricultural production at a high level, or had similar climate.

[Plutonic Panda]

I agree. However, I don't "think" they were as politically aligned with the south, didn't share agricultural production at a high level, or had similar climate.

Interesting then how Oklahoma is classified as being part of the SW.

[catch22]

It's just a feeling for me. It feels closest aligned to a southern state culturally. But that is no perfect match either.

I don't know why people get so butthurt about this. You can use whatever maps you want to use, but Oklahoma has a different feeling than the Southwestern US. It feels like the South. There are areas where it doesn't, for sure. But overall it does not have the same vibe as any of the southwestern states, sans Texas. I think the geographical boundaries are not very fair to the central states which don't lean way or the other completely. I think Texas, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas should be their own region as they have more similarities to each other in the modern-day than they did 200 years ago. Texas is tough because it is so big and spans several different cultures, Oklahoma kind of does this too with the far western part of the state feeling as close to the Southwest as any; but that is the least populated area. The central and eastern parts of the state, the most populous, feels much more southern in culture, than western.

[TheTravellers]

... I think Texas, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas should be their own region as they have more similarities to each other in the modern-day than they did 200 years ago. ...

Something like, say, a type of Plains region, maybe Great Plains?

[CCOKC]

I just back from a trip to Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana. I don't "feel" like Oklahomans align with the culture there. Plus when I told people where I was from, they told me I was from the Midwest. Of course, I have had people in Ohio and Indiana tell me I was from the south. The best answer I got was from a Louisianan who told me he thought of Oklahoma as Texas' big hat.

[BoulderSooner]

southern Plains ..... if you know you know ..

[Plutonic Panda]

Texas and Oklahoma really could be their own thing, IMO.

[Jake]

Texas and Oklahoma really could be their own thing, IMO.

Was going to say this. As much as some people don't want to admit it, Oklahoma is most similar to Texas than it is to any other state imo.

[progressiveboy]

According to the US Census Bureau, Oklahoma is listed and classified as a Southern State along with Texas, Arkansas and 15 other States. This should stop this silly controversy saying Oklahoma is a Midwest State or the Great Plains or a Southwestern State. As I stated in a earlier thread, Oklahoma is not the deep South, however it is a Southern State. Oklahoma is "not" part of the Midwest!

[Plutonic Panda]

Well there you have it. The census bureau has spoken! From El Paso to Jackson, Mississippi, the geographical diversity of the south is second to none!

[Plutonic Panda]

Really this thread title should be changed to “Why is it controversial to call Oklahoma part of the SW.” lol

[Plutonic Panda]

I consider Oklahoma part of the Southwest but I like this description here which I find more accurate:

“ Sorting through thousands of place names in hundreds of cities, he compiled a series of maps that showed how people identified their regions. Some of the regions were predictable: Boston businesses used a lot of terms like New England and Northeastern in their names or descriptions. “Southern” was a dominant term in phone books in Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia, etc. But, looking at Zelinksy’s maps today, it is Oklahoma that shows the biggest regional confusion. Strangely, Zelinsky never commented on this fact. He noted that some places, like western Pennsylvania, were kind of stuck between Northeastern and Midwestern, but it was Oklahoma that had the greatest amount of regional identities. Five of the twelve vernacular identities that Zelinsky came up with converged on Oklahoma. For phone books in the very southeastern part of the state, Oklahoma was southern. In the panhandle, it was the “West.” Along the Kansas border, it was the Midwest. From Oklahoma City to the west, it was the “southwest.”

https://thislandpress.com/2012/11/14...e-is-oklahoma/

Really where I genuinely get confused is what category OKC falls in. I really get can SW vibes in certain areas, NW OKC feeling like I could be in Denver, and eastern suburbs feeling like the south or rust belt. It’s actually pretty cool, IMO.

[progressiveboy]

Really this thread title should be changed to “Why is it controversial to call Oklahoma part of the SW.” lol

I think I will give it a rest! LOL.

[Plutonic Panda]

I think I will give it a rest! LOL.

I suppose telling someone who lives in antlers they live in the SW would be pretty funny. Oklahoma is a very geographically diverse state more than it gets credit for.

[SEMIweather]

I consider Oklahoma part of the Southwest but I like this description here which I find more accurate:

“ Sorting through thousands of place names in hundreds of cities, he compiled a series of maps that showed how people identified their regions. Some of the regions were predictable: Boston businesses used a lot of terms like New England and Northeastern in their names or descriptions. “Southern” was a dominant term in phone books in Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia, etc. But, looking at Zelinksy’s maps today, it is Oklahoma that shows the biggest regional confusion. Strangely, Zelinsky never commented on this fact. He noted that some places, like western Pennsylvania, were kind of stuck between Northeastern and Midwestern, but it was Oklahoma that had the greatest amount of regional identities. Five of the twelve vernacular identities that Zelinsky came up with converged on Oklahoma. For phone books in the very southeastern part of the state, Oklahoma was southern. In the panhandle, it was the “West.” Along the Kansas border, it was the Midwest. From Oklahoma City to the west, it was the “southwest.”

https://thislandpress.com/2012/11/14...e-is-oklahoma/

Really where I genuinely get confused is what category OKC falls in. I really get can SW vibes in certain areas, NW OKC feeling like I could be in Denver, and eastern suburbs feeling like the south or rust belt. It’s actually pretty cool, IMO.

This is why I've grown to like the "Crossroads of America" moniker for OKC, it really does seem like the gateway between the wide open plains of the southwest and the heavily forested areas of the southeast. And while the city itself is very flat, large stretches of land on the outskirts of the Metro have rolling hills that remind me a lot of Midwestern/Great Lakes topography as well.

[TheTravellers]

According to the US Census Bureau, Oklahoma is listed and classified as a Southern State along with Texas, Arkansas and 15 other States. This should stop this silly controversy saying Oklahoma is a Midwest State or the Great Plains or a Southwestern State. As I stated in a earlier thread, Oklahoma is not the deep South, however it is a Southern State. Oklahoma is "not" part of the Midwest!

And according to the USDA Forest Service, Oklahoma is part of the Great Plains.