Texas High Speed Rail

[Plutonic Panda]

New Mexico also reduced service on the rail runner many times and will likely be permanently shut down post COVID.

Not a huge market for making a 40min drive 1.5 hour train ride.

Lots of rail lines are likely to be shut down for awhile. Bad move on NMs part to shut it and I bet it comes back down the road,

[Edmond Hausfrau]

aw man, was wanting to try the rail runner next time I was in NM

I used to ride it when I was based in ABQ for work. The conductors slash ambassadors said it was heavily subsidized by government funds and usually ran in the red. The trains were clean when I was there, as were the stations, but it was faster to drive. Main benefit was not having to park in Santa Fe.

[Rover]

I've taken the flyer many times and have not observed this pitiful ridership you speak of

67,000 total riders a year is pretty pitiful. That's a total of 185 passengers a day or an average of about 92 each way. Serving 8 cities, that's pitiful.

[Rover]

Transportation is a necessity and should be built for the greater good, not for profit. I wouldn’t call Heartland Flyers ridership pitful given the circumstances. Obviously it doesn’t touch NE corridor lines numbers. A broader system would put more riders on.

Alternative transportation options open up new opportunities for the state.

Since 2013, ridership has continued to slide and was off 20% through 2019. I'm not aware of any new opportunities that have been created by it. Please tell me what has been created or is even being proposed.

Don't get me wrong. I use the trains extensively in the northeast from Boston to Washington DC. I use them extensively in Europe. Would love to have those kind of trains and schedules, but we don't have the same kind of population dispersion and cultural propensity. Plus, in those places there is a historic population dispersement that is only now occurring in many parts of the US.

[dankrutka]

67,000 total riders a year is pretty pitiful. That's a total of 185 passengers a day or an average of about 92 each way. Serving 8 cities, that's pitiful.

I don't know, that seems reasonable. The Flyer serves two cities (OKC & Fort Worth), 1 medium sized town (Norman), and 5 very small towns. In short, one train leaves from OKC for Fort Worth a day and it has 92 passengers on it. That seems completely reasonable and that's about what it feels like when I've ridden it.

P.S. It's absurd they haven't added a Sanger/Denton stop. I live in Denton and would love to take this more, but I have to drive an hour north (Gainesville) or southwest (Fort Worth) to catch it. A stop in Sanger/Denton would also provide a good way for people to get to Forth Worth. That could add some riders.

[shawnw]

67,000 total riders a year is pretty pitiful. That's a total of 185 passengers a day or an average of about 92 each way. Serving 8 cities, that's pitiful.

I guess what I'm getting at is, having ridden multiple Amtrak lines around the country (plus Canada's VIA rail system), anecdotally obvs, our ridership seems comparable to other lines. I realize it's not apples to apples, for example the lines in the NW have greater frequency. But I've never gotten on a train here and thought, oh boy, these guys are in trouble.

[Laramie]

Oklahoma City & Tulsa aren't ready for HSR; however if the grant money is there--take advantage of building the rail line infrastructure to connect both of Oklahoma's two largest metro CBDs.

It's probably going to take 7 years to get the line thru the planning and construction stages which means it would be available around 2030 at the earliest.

[Plutonic Panda]

Since 2013, ridership has continued to slide and was off 20% through 2019. I'm not aware of any new opportunities that have been created by it. Please tell me what has been created or is even being proposed.

Don't get me wrong. I use the trains extensively in the northeast from Boston to Washington DC. I use them extensively in Europe. Would love to have those kind of trains and schedules, but we don't have the same kind of population dispersion and cultural propensity. Plus, in those places there is a historic population dispersement that is only now occurring in many parts of the US.

I can’t give you specifics because I’m unaware of them but just speaking in generality that there are usually economic benefits that come with trains. I think it would help immensely if upgraded the line, extended it Tulsa and Newton, and had better frequencies running at least 4 trains a day. As Dan said, a stop in Denton would be prudent along with a stop in Thackerville at the casino.

If we double tracked the line, added 4 daily trains each way, maintained an average speed around 90-100MPH, I bet many riders would be induced. That also comes with new trains and again, extended service to Tulsa(and eventually connecting Tulsa to Kansas City and STL) and Newton.

If I were in charge I’d do this

Phase 1(2023-2025):

New Siemens diesel trains(I don’t know the model but I believe they are manufactured in Sacramento)

Revamped stations throughout the state

Added station at Winstar

Daily increase of trains to 4 each way

Double tracked in certain places along 60 percent of the line

Phase two(2025-2029):

Extension to Newton

New train line running to Tulsa down I-44 ROW

Heartland Flyer average speed 100MPH

Double tracked the entire route

Phase 3(2030s)

Extension from Tulsa to Missouri

Couple that with improvements to active transportation and improvements to local alternative transportation and I guarantee ridership increases. I don’t think any of that is unreasonable or unrealistic. Even all of that still doesn’t compare to Europe or the NE but provides for a decent alternative to car transportation.

[Plutonic Panda]

Oklahoma City & Tulsa aren't ready for HSR; however if the grant money is there--take advantage of building the rail line infrastructure to connect both of Oklahoma's two largest metro CBDs.

It's probably going to take 7 years to get the line thru the planning and construction stages which means it would be available around 2030 at the earliest.

Don’t hold your breath. From what I understand it’s a miracle that Oklahoma has kept it’s only train, heartland flyer, operating. Commuter rail seems like it isn’t happening anytime soon and, IIRC, was supposed to come online in OKC in a year or two but you can forget that. Every attempt at increasing passenger rail in Oklahoma seems to be derailed. I’m just speaking for fun. Very little chance any of this happens with current leadership.

[shawnw]

I can’t give you specifics because I’m unaware of them but just speaking in generality that there are usually economic benefits that come with trains. I think it would help immensely if upgraded the line, extended it Tulsa and Newton, and had better frequencies running at least 4 trains a day. As Dan said, a stop in Denton would be prudent along with a stop in Thackerville at the casino.

If we double tracked the line, added 4 daily trains each way, maintained an average speed around 90-100MPH, I bet many riders would be induced. That also comes with new trains and again, extended service to Tulsa(and eventually connecting Tulsa to Kansas City and STL) and Newton

Based on their current direction, It would be OKC-Newton, not Tulsa-Newton.

I think much of what you want won't be doable until we are operational to Newton and ridership proves the investment is worthy, which I think it will be.

Personally I'd be happy to start with if they would just come back and go down at least one more time per day to give some flexibility. In other words when it gets down to FTW, it loads up and comes back. Then takes another load down. I realize this would require another train because of the timing. But right now once the train is down there, it stays until the 5:30 return.

If I were in charge I’d do this

Phase 1(2023-2025):

New Siemens diesel trains(I don’t know the model but I believe they are manufactured in Sacramento)

Revamped stations throughout the state

Added station at Winstar

Daily increase of trains to 4 each way

Double tracked in certain places along 60 percent of the line

Phase two(2025-2029):

Extension to Newton

New train line running to Tulsa down I-44 ROW

Heartland Flyer average speed 100MPH

Double tracked the entire route

Phase 3(2030s)

Extension from Tulsa to Missouri

Couple that with improvements to active transportation and improvements to local alternative transportation and I guarantee ridership increases. I don’t think any of that is unreasonable or unrealistic. Even all of that still doesn’t compare to Europe or the NE but provides for a decent alternative to car transportation.

You may or may not realize that the flyer is 100% Oklahoma-Texas funded. Unlike some other routes, we don't get any federal assistance. This is based on a map I've seen that shows 100% federally funded lines, lines that are fed/state funded, and lines that are state only, and we were the latter. I'll see if I can find that map. Point is, I don't see the states of Oklahoma or Texas doing any of what you're asking for (maybe Texas would be interested after the high speed train is in place, who knows). Now what I _could_ see is getting some federal funds to help us get online to Newton, and once we're online there, if it were going well, I could see the FTW-Newton full line becoming partially federal funded. But we've got such a long way to go. Again, I want everything you want. But there are fiscal realities to face.

[Plutonic Panda]

I understand completely. Very slim chance we get of any of it and it’ll be a miracle if we do get an OKC-Newton line. Hell, there’s a good chance the heartland flyer could see the chopping block with the way things are going.

[Rover]

Don’t hold your breath. From what I understand it’s a miracle that Oklahoma has kept it’s only train, heartland flyer, operating. Commuter rail seems like it isn’t happening anytime soon and, IIRC, was supposed to come online in OKC in a year or two but you can forget that. Every attempt at increasing passenger rail in Oklahoma seems to be derailed. I’m just speaking for fun. Very little chance any of this happens with current leadership.

I appreciate your enthusiasm. But, there are no studies I am aware of that project any induced demand on these kind of routes. Nor any that show that there would be increased investments along the way or addition development. Perhaps an excursion train to Windstar would get some daily traffic, but I have seen no studies that show that or quantify the demand.

Problem is you still need a car when you get to your destination. And, even at 90 mph, with 6 or seven stops along the way, it will take longer than driving.

It would be easy to go do polling at a few places along !-35 at popular stops like Love's etc. and ask how many drivers would forgo driving if there was a train available. You could check price elasticity, requirements of schedules, etc. A real study can be done if anyone really wants to know.

[Plutonic Panda]

I thought a feasibility study happened or is underway on a Windstar station?

[mugofbeer]

I don't know, that seems reasonable. The Flyer serves two cities (OKC & Fort Worth), 1 medium sized town (Norman), and 5 very small towns. In short, one train leaves from OKC for Fort Worth a day and it has 92 passengers on it. That seems completely reasonable and that's about what it feels like when I've ridden it.

P.S. It's absurd they haven't added a Sanger/Denton stop. I live in Denton and would love to take this more, but I have to drive an hour north (Gainesville) or southwest (Fort Worth) to catch it. A stop in Sanger/Denton would also provide a good way for people to get to Forth Worth. That could add some riders.

I was shocked at how much growth had taken place in those areas last time l was through l35. A stop doesn't need to be more than a couple of minutes. Plus, there could be a way to connect the Denton county light rail into Dallas to it.

[Plutonic Panda]

Update:

https://www.equipmentworld.com/bette...says-developer

[Plutonic Panda]

Early operator has been named:

https://www.kbtx.com/2021/07/14/texa...myhJHF5gKp7sL4

[Triggerman]

Build that train!

[SEMIweather]

If this ever actually gets built and is truly high speed rail, I would for sure ride it at least once for the experience, if nothing else.

[baralheia]

If this ever actually gets built and is truly high speed rail, I would for sure ride it at least once for the experience, if nothing else.

It will be true high speed rail. Texas Central will be using Japanese N700 Shinkansen trainsets. Top speed for the line is expected to be 200mph and one-way travel time from Dallas to Houston is expected to be under 90 minutes.

[gopokes88]

It is way to easy to sue and stop projects in this country.

[SEMIweather]

It is way to easy to sue and stop projects in this country.

Yep. IMO this is the #1 reason that the housing market is out of control right now in any area that’s halfway desirable to live in. NIMBY’s have way too much influence on local politics, and the end result is that metros with rapidly increasing population levels are simply not building enough homes/apartments to keep up.

To tie my mini-rant back into this thread, this is essentially the reason for my cynicism in post #43. I’ll believe this project is actually going to completed at a high-quality level when I see it. Look at how mediocre California’s HSR project is setting up to be relative to when it was first announced years and years ago.

[gopokes88]

Yep. IMO this is the #1 reason that the housing market is out of control right now in any area that’s halfway desirable to live in. NIMBY’s have way too much influence on local politics, and the end result is that metros with rapidly increasing population levels are simply not building enough homes/apartments to keep up.

To tie my mini-rant back into this thread, this is essentially the reason for my cynicism in post #43. I’ll believe this project is actually going to completed at a high-quality level when I see it. Look at how mediocre California’s HSR project is setting up to be relative to when it was first announced years and years ago.

Its everything. Pipelines, roads, homes, any infrastructure

[Mott]

There is a light rail connection from Denton to DART. As a rail fan, parked car in Denton and rode it down to DART, and then to Dallas, very nice system.

[Rover]

If this ever actually gets built and is truly high speed rail, I would for sure ride it at least once for the experience, if nothing else.

You can’t build a system like this for people riding it once.

[Rover]

Yep. IMO this is the #1 reason that the housing market is out of control right now in any area that’s halfway desirable to live in. NIMBY’s have way too much influence on local politics, and the end result is that metros with rapidly increasing population levels are simply not building enough homes/apartments to keep up.

To tie my mini-rant back into this thread, this is essentially the reason for my cynicism in post #43. I’ll believe this project is actually going to completed at a high-quality level when I see it. Look at how mediocre California’s HSR project is setting up to be relative to when it was first announced years and years ago.

So, people living in an area have too much say over the things that influence their lives? And the answer is to build more cheap apartments? More sprawl?