Boardwalk at Bricktown / Dream Hotel

[Plutonic Panda]

Still, neither has even a small fraction of the highway system when compared to OKC, and are much larger cities; both have populations over 5 million.

The key here is offering alternative transportation as opposed to OKC only offering cars as a practical mode. To me that’s the biggest difference though I have never been to Australia, besides Japan and the Scandinavia region, Australia seems like a cool place.

[Rover]

I visited friends in Melbourne as well who never owned a car. It's nothing like OKC. Way, way more dense.

I just looked it up: Melbourne 8,648 people per square mile; OKC 1,104.

Central Melbourne is now much larger and denser, but Melbourne has huge urban sprawl. 92% of their households own cars, with 16% having 3 or more cars. I spent a fair amount of time in Melbourne and suburbs are suburbs..... except they drive on the other side

[Pete]

^

Still loads of people take public transportation and that city still has 8x the density of OKC.

It's almost impossible to live ANYWHERE in OKC without a car. That's a huge difference and it's silly to compare almost any U.S. city to anyplace outside of this country.

[HOT ROD]

you can live downtown and parts of the inner north city areas without a car in OKC today, this will be particularly enhanced as the grocery store options recently announced (and if 711 would get off their behind and put in convenience stores, downtown).

But outside of downtown and plaza/uptown/OCU and Classen/NHP areas, I agree you NEED a car in OKC.

[Pete]

you can live downtown and parts of the inner north city areas without a car in OKC today, this will be particularly enhanced as the grocery store options recently announced (and if 711 would get off their behind and put in convenience stores, downtown).

Practically speaking, you can't. I know, I lived down there.

There is no grocery store and even if you work downtown, you still need a car for meetings.

I drove far more often than I would have preferred.


There are a handful of people who live in the core without a car, but it's a huge sacrifice on their part and nothing like living in any other city outside the U.S. Just try relying on the OKC bus system sometime; read the blog of council member Jo Beth Hamon who goes out of her way not to own a car and how incredibly difficult it is in OKC; and she lives in Regency Tower (or did).

[Rover]

^

Still loads of people take public transportation and that city still has 8x the density of OKC.

It's almost impossible to live ANYWHERE in OKC without a car. That's a huge difference and it's silly to compare almost any U.S. city to anyplace outside of this country.

Mostly what you say is true, however I just looked at a list for world cities with best public transportation and Chicago was #6 and NYC #11. The rest of the cities on the list, well the US citizens, and OKC in particular, would never pay the level of taxes in those cities and countries. When people are willing to trade higher taxes for the cost of 2nd cars, and willing to give up their big yards, then we might make progress. Til then, it is mostly lip service.

That said, for this project, some design choices can be made to enhance it, but OKC isn't changing their car culture in time for this project to move forward. Developers build what sells, they don't change cultures.

[Pete]

Chicago, New York and SF and maybe Seattle are exceptions.

But we aren't talking about exceptions, we're talking about how American cities were completely designed around the car. And fixing the problem after the fact is what would cause the huge tax bill rather than designing properly at the outset.

[Rover]

Chicago, New York and SF and maybe Seattle are exceptions.

But we aren't talking about exceptions, we're talking about how American cities were completely designed around the car. And fixing the problem after the fact is what would cause the huge tax bill rather than designing properly at the outset.

Different times, different economics, different people, different geographical constraints, and different problems. The closest to Euro design is probably Washington DC. We are never going to be Europe and frankly mostly wouldn't want to be. I've spent significant time out of the country doing business in over 30 countries over many years in many, many of the great cities in the world. I have used the public transportation all over the world and understand its utility. But, I can honestly say I wouldn't trade living here in what many apparently think are a corrupt car country/economy for virtually anywhere else in the world. I believe we have room for both cars AND public transportation and to demonize one or the other is just small thinking. I'm all for emphasizing development in the infrastructure and for having options. I just don't think anyone having a car and liking their freedom they derive from it is inherently bad.

[Plutonic Panda]

Cars are practically the best form of the transportation that has ever existed and that’s evident by even trends in developing BRIC countries. Give someone the choice of an easy commute by mass transit or car with and offering if living in an urban area or the suburbs and most will pick the latter. The streetcars are what led to the first form of real urban sprawl.

[Pete]

^

Lots of people would define freedom as not needing a car and here and many other U.S. cities that is not a realistic option.

And only the poorest people in places like OKC don't have cars, which means their lives are very, very hard.

That's the point, not some binary view that people want cars eliminated altogether.

[Plutonic Panda]

^

Lots of people would define freedom as not needing a car and here and many other U.S. cities that is not a realistic option.

And only the poorest people in places like OKC don't have cars, which means their lives are very, very hard.

That's the point, not some binary view that people want cars eliminated altogether.

I completely agree for the most part but my personal views of freedom exist in part due to my car but I’m also someone who loves road trips and driving 8+ hour trips is something I do multiple times a month. So perhaps I’m biased.

With that said, there is a very strong anti car movement happening in the US amongst transportation planning.

[Pete]

True freedom would allow you to own a car or not own one.

In the huge majority of the U.S. you only have one option.

[Plutonic Panda]

True freedom would allow you to own a car or not own one.

In the huge majority of the U.S. you only have one option.

I couldn’t agree more. Hopefully with this next infrastructure package that will change. Biden has ended negotiations with the republicans in the senate and it seems he is pressing forward so hopefully we see a real increase in transportation options. Simply having a bus doesn’t make car free living a viable alternative if the trip takes 2-3x as long by it than it would a car.

[Plutonic Panda]

TLO has an article on the tragedy of losing this parking lot: https://t.co/OvGbNTZiDG?amp=1

[shawnw]

Practically speaking, you can't. I know, I lived down there.

There is no grocery store and even if you work downtown, you still need a car for meetings.

I drove far more often than I would have preferred.


There are a handful of people who live in the core without a car, but it's a huge sacrifice on their part and nothing like living in any other city outside the U.S. Just try relying on the OKC bus system sometime; read the blog of council member Jo Beth Hamon who goes out of her way not to own a car and how incredibly difficult it is in OKC; and she lives in Regency Tower (or did).

JoBeth still lives in the Regency and so do I. I split my time between my apartment there and my GF's house in the nearish NW (15/May) and I haven't driven my car in 2.5 years (planning to get rid of it this year). I go by bike or bus. I still grocery shop. Mostly Classen Homeland but at times I'll go up to the WF/TJ area. It can be done. Is it a sacrifice? Sometimes sure, but honestly I don't view it all that differently than when I lived in Philadelphia. My home there (I own my mom's house in North Philly where she still lives) is a similar distance to the grocery store as I am, and there is similar access to bike/bus infrastructure from mom's to the grocery store as what I have here. Here I can walk across the street and hop on the 5 and access Homeland, Walmart, Whole Foods, Trader Joe's on the same route. In Philly I'd walk to the corner and hop on the 75 to get to ShopRite. It's really not that different. I'm NOT saying it's like that all over OKC, because it definitely is not, I have plenty of stories to tell from my experience in voluntary carlessness in OKC. But I'm agreeing with the earlier post that there are areas/pockets of the city where it is quite practical. And it will only improve as the bike and bus infrastructure improves over the coming decade.

^
Lots of people would define freedom as not needing a car and here and many other U.S. cities that is not a realistic option.

And only the poorest people in places like OKC don't have cars, which means their lives are very, very hard.

That's the point, not some binary view that people want cars eliminated altogether.

Personally I definitely feel more free without a car. I'm not saying that when I'm driving a car I don't feel "the freedom to go anywhere anytime". But that feeling goes up against the reality of everything that comes with car ownership pretty quickly. To me it's more freeing to no longer have to deal with traffic, or car maintenance issues, etc. I simply do not enjoy the driving experience in general. I'm much less at ease when driving.

[Anonymous.]

Pretty funny stuff in those comments. I especially liked the comments on the new Harvey Bakery post talking about losing the parking that was once inside it.

I am wondering though, was this string of parking lots actually free?

[Dob Hooligan]

I read that Australia has 25 million people, while the US has 330 million. At 7-8% of the US, Australia has to have a much smaller economic ability to build infrastructure.

Canada appears to have about 38 million people.

[Pete]

I knew you'd comment, shawn and I'm glad you did.

But very, very, very few people would choose to live the way you do.


It's not impossible to live without a car here, but it does involve huge sacrifice or in the case of the indigent (who can't come close to affording Regency Tower), incredible hardship.

[GoGators]

THAT is your response? LOLROF. Schoolyard logic..

No one is saying cars are bad. Designing cities around cars is what is bad.

[shawnw]

Exactly. Systematic transportation equity is what we want. And we wanted it yesterday.

[HOT ROD]

Shawn hit on what I was getting at, you CAN be carless in downtown and the inner core areas of OKC; it's not that much different than any other US city outside of Chicago-NY-SF-DC where you truly don't need a car. Seattle is great for commuting to downtown but that's it - you need a car here just like anywhere else. Will there be sacrifices not owning a car - sure. But there are sacrifices here in Seattle too, not too much different than OKC esp in the inner core.

That was my point.

Now I also totally agree with Rover, having also traveled internationally (Asia) and used and not used public transit. I resided in Japan for a time and yes, while they have great public rail transit I still rented a car to 'do my own thing'. As Rover said and I totally agree, it's not about pitting transit against cars it's about designing so that BOTH can prosper and give people a choice.

But I think it's ridiculous to expect a bus to pick you up from everywhere and drop you off in front of everywhere - that doesn't happen anywhere but seems to be the far extreme that some pro-transit (you can't be carless in OKC) people keep stating. Even in Chicago - the best transit city here - you have to walk a bit and transfer between modes. That is also the experience in Tokyo and Osaka Japan (both cities I'm extremely familiar with). The big difference in all those cities vs. OKC is that there's plenty to do/see between stops that you don't notice the walk and this is where OKC needs to adapt. INFILL without massive parking.

I suspect in the near future this will be come reality in downtown and then spreading to the inner core districts. Once that happens then I bet the attitude of the can't be carless in OKC folks will change. So in my opinion this is what they and all of us should be promoting - productive urban infill instead of deamonizing the car.

Even in Chicago (Tokyo, Osaka, Shanghai, Chongqing, etc - all transit great cities I've been/lived in) there's tons of cars and lots of parking (but its very well designed, urban, restrictive costly parking) that's well accepted if not expected. We can benchmark some facets from them while also being proud of our independent american car culture so people have something to see/do and are shaded/protected in the walk from parking.

[Pete]

Shawn hit on what I was getting at, you CAN be carless in downtown and the inner core areas of OKC; it's not that much different than any other US city outside of Chicago-NY-SF-DC where you truly don't need a car.

This is completely incorrect.

There are 50 cities bigger or almost the same size as OKC and we are probably one of the very few without a downtown grocery store, let alone anything like a CVS or Walgreens or even an OnCue or QuikTrip.

Again, I actually lived down there for a year and I tried very hard to walk as much as possible. I'm not just speaking in hypotheticals.

[3nglnd]

^
I’d say a realistic lifestyle adjustment in downtown OKC for many couples or families would be reducing to a single car for the family, which is still a drastic change for most - and is actually a great way to offset the higher housing costs. 0 car -especially in the winter - would require a level of dedication and stubbornness that only a few possess

[Teo9969]

Living without a car in OKC gets more and more difficult/costly for each of the following things that is true:

- You are considering employment more than 1 mile outside of Interstate Loop.
- You have close friends/family which you would like to see often who live in neighborhoods built after the 1950s (and many neighborhoods built in and after the 40s).
- You don't find a residence within 5-10 blocks of the Embark Hub on Hudson. This also makes residing somewhere with a yard more difficult.
- You want to feel free to experience the full offerings of the city at anytime (Going to Quail Springs, for example, would have to be a calculated plan or a friend to go with you or a ride-share/taxi).
- You are budget tight and cannot afford rents over $700.00
- Your job or lifestyle requires that you be moving from place to place relatively frequently.
- If you have kids, the cost/difficulty of the above is amplified substantially.

This obviously is not a comprehensive list but gives a decent idea as to some of the "sacrifices" being made. For some, literally nothing on that list applies, so it's really just saving all the costs associated with car ownership plus likely enjoying a car free lifestyle. But if you have even 2 things on that list, it's just so hard to justify not having a car.

If you brought the frequency of all of our public transit down to 10-12 minutes across the board, then I think the severity of some of the above would be lessened. But if you're living at Avaire and you're doing some grocery shopping at Homeland and your checkout lady has to call someone to help decipher a code and you miss that 005 by one minute, you're either walking form 18th to 3rd or waiting 29 minutes for the next route. That's a pretty high price to pay to not have a car. (And yes, I do get it, there are things to do when you're waiting/riding transit - it's one of the great things about not driving - but for most people, 29 minutes in the elements waiting is not as nice as 29 minutes at your destination).

[shawnw]

- You are considering employment more than 1 mile outside of Interstate Loop.
- You have close friends/family which you would like to see often who live in neighborhoods built after the 1950s (and many neighborhoods built in and after the 40s).
- You don't find a residence within 5-10 blocks of the Embark Hub on Hudson. This also makes residing somewhere with a yard more difficult.
- You want to feel free to experience the full offerings of the city at anytime (Going to Quail Springs, for example, would have to be a calculated plan or a friend to go with you or a ride-share/taxi).
- You are budget tight and cannot afford rents over $700.00
- Your job or lifestyle requires that you be moving from place to place relatively frequently.
- If you have kids, the cost/difficulty of the above is amplified substantially.

Not disagreeing with this per se. Just some comments.

1) Work about 500 ft shy of being a mile outside the highway loop. It's a doable 7 mile one way trip from downtown, but it is far from ideal.
2) My dad lives in Del City. I've ridden my bike from downtown to his place. Unfortunately I didn't check to see that he was awake first. Planning to ride to my aunt's in Moore when the family starts having gatherings again. Have ridden to friends places in quite a few parts of the city. I REALLY wish there were better northbound crossings of I-44. Really just hate using Classen or Western. Looking forward to that greenway trail.
3) I would tweak the 5-10 blocks from the TC to include some additional key spots where good routes converge (e.g. 23/Classen is a good area for transit, you've got the 5, 23, and 10 in very close proximity, throw in the 38 if you're between 10th/23rd). Also near the outlet mall there's a "mini-hub" where 4 different routes connect, that could be made to work.
4) You're definitely not wrong about this one, but in that scenario I can and have taken an Uber, but I def realize many do not have that option
5) Lately it seems like even $700 rents are rare
6) No joke on this one. On days where I have doctor/dental appointments I make them at the beginning or end of the day. If I have to be "back and forth" (e.g. downtown 11am meeting), I work from home until the meeting and then ride to work after.
7) Could not have done this myself if I still had kids at home (but some, like Tony Carfang, have made it work. With his cargo bike, taking his daughter to daycare every morning and commuting from NW OKC to Boeing in SE OKC), he's a true hero for this cause. Being an empty nester definitely made this possible for me.