Central Presbyterian Church

[Pete]

I keep saying it, but there are going to be a lot of churches selling their property in the near future, especially those south of Memorial and north of I-240.


Church attendance is dropping everywhere, the OKC area now has tons of mega-churches in outlying areas, and most of these churches were built in the '50s and '60s when not only did people go to church more often, they were surrounded by young families.

In the case of Central Presbyterian, there is another Presby church a 1/2 mile east on 50th. I go by that church all the time as well as the neighboring Mayfair Church of Christ and the parking lots are always empty with just a small amount of cars on Sunday mornings.

We are starting to see the changeover happen. Central Presbyterian, Grace United Methodist on NW 63rd and Tulsa, Northwest Christian Church at NW 30th and May (now Dental Depot HQ). And of course, First Christian at NW 36th and Walker has been for sale for some time. Putnam City Baptist moved way far out in the '80s and sold their property to the PC school district.

I just hope we can find well-designed constructive uses for what is likely to be dozens of former church properties.

It's really similar to the repurposing of old school buildings, although most of those had character and history and lent themselves towards housing and other uses. Not sure there are many uses for churches other than demolition.

[Celebrator]

Not sure there are many uses for churches other than demolition.

Here are a few great examples. I find these church adaptive re-uses fascinating. A couple of years ago I heard a college professor who is an expert in this talk about these projects below:
https://inhabitat.com/historic-san-f...ft-apartments/
http://www.buildingwork.design/news/...e-of-churches/
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/me...y-mickey-mouse
https://archive.triblive.com/lifesty...outique-hotel/

[Dob Hooligan]

Here are a few great examples. I find these church adaptive re-uses fascinating. A couple of years ago I heard a college professor who is an expert in this talk about these projects below:
https://inhabitat.com/historic-san-f...ft-apartments/
http://www.buildingwork.design/news/...e-of-churches/
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/me...y-mickey-mouse
https://archive.triblive.com/lifesty...outique-hotel/

Those are all nice examples, but I don't think they are the category Pete is referring to here. Appears to me that the churches in your links are beautiful, 100 year old structures in dense areas. With the exception of the First Christian Church, Pete is describing mainline, nondescript campuses from roughly 1955-85. Representing the post war, suburban style, they are inefficient in their use of land and square footage, while further burdening their structures with the utilitarian blandness of a government building or hospital. They share the same 4 features; surface parking to meet a peak load of 6 hours a week; Sunday school/classroom space for maybe10 hours a week; kitchen/gym/meeting room that works 15 hours a week, and office space that is used 50 hours a week while utilizing 5 percent of the overall campus.

[Pete]

This no-longer-needed-church-property problem is not unique to OKC but it certainly seems more acute here mainly because our ridiculous and unabated sprawl has led to huge areas of town being regarded as throw-away.

I personally know this better than most because I grew up near NW 63rd & Meridian in the heart of the PC school system when that area was absolutely the 'best' in the Oklahoma City area (apart from Nichols Hills which has always been an entirely different animal).

This was in the '60's and '70's and fast-forward to today where the area has fallen to such a point many now regard it as undesirable. What were once thriving shopping centers and the best and most successful restaurants in town are now an endless string of pawnshops, payday loan storefronts, and vape places. I simply can't believe what has happened to that area in such short time. I'm sure people who went to Northwest Classen and John Marshall in the '60s feel exactly the same, but in their case they have an easy culprit: forced busing. The PC area has collapsed simply because the very far north areas and Edmond offered new housing due to endless cow pastures being turned into subdivisions.

I graduated from high school in 1978, at the tail end of the Baby Boom. My class was 1,000 kids, most upper-middle class. I keep the class database and update it every five years for our reunions. Almost none of the people that grew up in that area continue to live there. Those that are still in Oklahoma are primarily in Edmond or at least in the Edmond schools.


The point being that the locations of most these now deserted church properties are not desirable for investors/developers.

At least this particular church is on the hard corner of a major section line road intersection. 95% of the others are not and I fear they will meet a sad, slow, ugly fate that will contribute to their particular neighborhoods becoming all the more shabby.

[Celebrator]

Those are all nice examples, but I don't think they are the category Pete is referring to here. Appears to me that the churches in your links are beautiful, 100 year old structures in dense areas. With the exception of the First Christian Church, Pete is describing mainline, nondescript campuses from roughly 1955-85. Representing the post war, suburban style, they are inefficient in their use of land and square footage, while further burdening their structures with the utilitarian blandness of a government building or hospital. They share the same 4 features; surface parking to meet a peak load of 6 hours a week; Sunday school/classroom space for maybe10 hours a week; kitchen/gym/meeting room that works 15 hours a week, and office space that is used 50 hours a week while utilizing 5 percent of the overall campus.

Yes, you are absolutely right about this, as is Pete's comment above as well, when I think about it. We are not talking about centrai, urban locations with high quality builds, but rather mid-century utilitarian buildings without much architectural interest, frankly. So you all are right, most of these will probably meet the wrecking ball.

In the same vein as my examples above, anyone know what has happened to the proposed Travis Watkins Law Firm renovation of our First Church of Christ, Scientist, on Robinson downtown? I thought they were going to renovate it and use it as their new office. That is a beautiful building in a great location.

[Pete]

^

IIRC, Watkins could not obtain historic tax credits and therefore decided not to go forward with a planned renovation.

He bought the property in August 2018 and absolutely nothing has happened there since.

[wunderkind]

A similar trend started much earlier for the more inner-city churches. The Penn Avenue Church of the Nazarene at 10th and Penn was a thriving church many years ago and was at least active, with a congregation, 20 years ago. Then it became a ministry focused on homeless and near-homeless. It now houses a small inner-city focused non-profit for kids, which is great, but meanwhile the entire building has declined. This is the building that shares a wall with the Hungry Frog, or did while that restaurant was open. It will be interesting to see if this corner is redeveloped.

[Pete]

[Pete]

No demo permit yet, but the backhoe is onsite ready to get busy.

[Bowser214]

I think they're putting a Braum's there lol JK.

[Pete]

Down she comes.

I'm told there are plans for restaurants/retail but no specific plans have been drawn.

[shawnw]

I get that it was going to get demoed regardless, but I hate this whole let it be demolished without a plan thing.

[Pete]

[Dob Hooligan]

I get that it was going to get demoed regardless, but I hate this whole let it be demolished without a plan thing.

I understand what you are saying, but I think there are 2 big factors that make demolition almost a forced choice:

1. I have always been told that assessed property values add for structure(s) on site. So removal can make taxes lower. Also, it can eliminate the need to insure a property.

2. Homelessness: This property is becoming plagued with homeless people camping in any semi-hidden corners and nooks area on the exterior. I don't know that they have broken in, but when they do then securing the space becomes almost impossible.

[David]

RIP to the Pokemon Go gym on that corner, eventually.

[Ward]

How sad. But it's just a sign of the times.

I briefly dated the daughter of the Preacher at this church back in the late 70's.

[Pete]

I went by just now and the entire structure is already flattened.

Will take them a while to truck off all the debris. Looks very strange to have those buildings gone.

[dford2]

It's easier to sale this type of property if it's an empty lot. Prospective buyers don't want the added expense to remove structures.

[WheelerD Guy]

An OnCue or a small-scale Buc-ees would be perfect right there.

[Pete]

An OnCue or a small-scale Buc-ees would be perfect right there.

OnCue recently bought and plans to develop the former Founders Bank property just a few hundred yards to the north.

7-11 might be a good candidate but I suspect this group will do a fast food place or two with maybe a small strip center, very similar to the old car dealership immediately to the north which is now home to Jack-in-the-Box, Whataburger and some small businesses.

[soonerguru]

An OnCue or a small-scale Buc-ees would be perfect right there.

Hell to the F No.

[Pete]

[mugofbeer]

Seems ironic Mayfair is mostly empty, unless something has changed recently, but the church is torn down to make room for another retail strip center.

[Pete]

Mayfair has a bunch of deals in the pipeline.

That area is one of the most dense in all of OKC.

[bombermwc]

I found that ironic as well mugofbeer. I realize this is a dense area (just drive through it some time and see all the traffic), but the turnover on a lot of those spaces is pretty high too. Now isn't the time small business is going to be taking a risk to start and a lot of them have failed in the last year. Mayfair is taking its dang sweet time to move at all on the renovations, so just don't expect anything fast around these parts. The old grey mare ain't what she used to be south of the NWXway.