Stadium District (formerly Producers Coop)

[TheTravellers]

I thought a downtown casino had some sort of legal roadblock?

I believe casinos have be located on tribal land in OK, and I believe there is none in OKC.

[Plutonic Panda]

I wish Oklahoma would legalize commercial casinos like Vegas.

[Laramie]

I wish Oklahoma would legalize commercial casinos like Vegas.

Thank you.

But much like they did the horse track when Remington Park was built--limit the number to one which could be built in one metro area.

[Swake]

The state could allow commercial casinos. But that would void the gaming compacts with the tribes and they would no longer owe the state anything from any of their casinos.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^^ That is worth it For both parties I would add

[Dob Hooligan]

Remember when we wuz in school and an old-timey map of Oklahoma showed the general OKC area as “unassigned lands”? I understand it to mean that no tribe has control over it. I think it also suggests that every single tribe that is recognized in Oklahoma feels they have an equal claim to this area. That makes me think that negotiating a compact with every tribe in Oklahoma, as well as the state, would be a heavy lift.

[shawnw]

Shawn, that’s simply not true. Johnson and Associates (designer of the north portion of the original canal) did a preliminary plan pro bono for a different effort in 2009. The grade separation thing is real, but only related to the dip that the boulevard takes to get under BNSF.

The route of the canal as proposed for the cotton mill/aquarium project would have required an existing drainage ditch that runs N-S just east of the grain elevator climbing gym to be boxed in, so that the canal could travel over it. But the canal could then easily proceed through the producers site and could then even travel under BNSF, cross Shields, run down the Boulevard past the Omni, touch Scissortail, cross the boulevard and touch the arena’s SW plaza, cross Robinson and even make it all the way to Myriad Botanical Gardens. No locks required.

This is all very realistic from an engineering standpoint.

Chad... he said:

extend the canal to the P-COOP site and the river

I got that "canal can't connect to river" bit from you. And that's what I was referring to.

Regarding ONLY extending the canal to coop site, yes if you simply don't go down into that valley, makes sense that you would then be able to extend.

[Oski]

^^^ Shawn: something like this will work, much simpler solution, no need for a lock in order to send the taxis to the river.

[Urbanized]

Ah, my bad, sorry. I missed that part. Yes, a physical river connection via water is not only impractical but also also makes no sense from a watercraft standpoint as no craft could operate on both bodies. The elevation difference is about 17’, and would indeed require multiple locks, only to have zero possibility of a craft actually using them.

There is an existing pedestrian connection in the form of Bricktown Landing, which places the two bodies of water mere yards from one another. The public is unfortunately barely aware of it. It could use more enhancements, but it’s nevertheless pretty elaborate.

[Urbanized]

^^^ Shawn: something like this will work, much simpler solution, no need for a lock in order to send the taxis to the river.

(Image)

Haha, no thanks!

[yukong]

I believe casinos have be located on tribal land in OK, and I believe there is none in OKC.

By law, Indian Casinos can only be on Indian Trust land within the confines of the original boundaries of an Indian nation or reservation. Oklahoma City is not part of any Indian reservation or Indian country. Therefore, no tribe can put a casino in OKC as there is no way a tribe can own land in trust here in OKC.

The legislature could change the law to allow Vegas style casinos but that won't happen. There is no appetite politically for such.

[kukblue1]

By law, Indian Casinos can only be on Indian Trust land within the confines of the original boundaries of an Indian nation or reservation. Oklahoma City is not part of any Indian reservation or Indian country. Therefore, no tribe can put a casino in OKC as there is no way a tribe can own land in trust here in OKC.

The legislature could change the law to allow Vegas style casinos but that won't happen. There is no appetite politically for such.

So Tulsa has parts that are Indian Reservations I take it.

[ShadowStrings]

Though not possible under current laws, it would be cool to have a mini Vegas strip downtown, if we were to give plots of land to any tribes willing to develop and put hotel-casinos on. The tribes could integrate museums or other cultural displays as well. I know we're sort of getting the museum aspect with the FAM, but you can't have too many museums in my opinion. Imagine the COOP fully developed with casinos, museums, a canal extension, shopping, and an aquarium. Maybe even some sort of shuttle to FAM.

[shawnw]

When I go to Vegas I avoid the strip at all costs and hang downtown at freemont street most of the time. No thanks to reproducing that here.

[ShadowStrings]

Agree...I guess I was imagining that the OKC version of the strip would more like Fremont Street.

[shawnw]

That I'd take

[yukong]

So Tulsa has parts that are Indian Reservations I take it.

Yes. Most all of Tulsa is part of the Cherokee or Muscogee (Creek) reservations. Therefore and land owned by either tribe can be put into “trust” and then have a casino. The River Spirit Casino is on the Muscogee Creek Reservation and the Hard Rock is Cherokee.

[yukong]

No tribe can put a casino in OKC under federal law. No part of OKC is “Indian Country.” Tribe an own land here like the Chickasaw’s now own the old Sportsmen’s Country Club site on 39th. But since it isn’t in “Indian Country” then it cannot be put in “trust” so it cannot have a casino. Unless Oklahoma opens up Oklahoma to Vegas style gambling, there will be no casinos in OKC other than Remington Park. That is not an “Indian Casino” under the Indian Gaming laws. It is a private casino given explicit authority due to an initiative petition I believe. It is owned by a subsidiary of the Chickasaw nation, Global Gaming Solutions LLC which itself is not an Indian operation.

[Swake]

Yes. Most all of Tulsa is part of the Cherokee or Muscogee (Creek) reservations. Therefore and land owned by either tribe can be put into “trust” and then have a casino. The River Spirit Casino is on the Muscogee Creek Reservation and the Hard Rock is Cherokee.

All of Tulsa is Indian land. The part of the city in Osage County is in the Osage Nation, Tulsa in Tulsa County north of Admiral Blvd(I-244) is Cherokee. Everything south of Admiral, which is by far most of the city, is Creek. Basically the entire metro is Indian land as well.

[Laramie]

All of Tulsa is Indian land. The part of the city in Osage County is in the Osage Nation, Tulsa in Tulsa County north of Admiral Blvd(I-244) is Cherokee. Everything south of Admiral, which is by far most of the city, is Creek. Basically the entire metro is Indian land as well.

You have a funding foundation base for real Tribal investments. What's prohibiting Tulsa from mega growth and becoming a real 'boom town.'

[BoulderSooner]

Yes. Most all of Tulsa is part of the Cherokee or Muscogee (Creek) reservations. Therefore and land owned by either tribe can be put into “trust” and then have a casino. The River Spirit Casino is on the Muscogee Creek Reservation and the Hard Rock is Cherokee.

the gov of Oklahoma has veto power over what land in the state is put in trust status for a casino ... ( this doesn't account for how the Mcgirt decision may have changed things )

[Swake]

the gov of Oklahoma has veto power over what land in the state is put in trust status for a casino ... ( this doesn't account for how the Mcgirt decision may have changed things )

No they don't. The BIA does, but not the state.

[Jersey Boss]

The residential component in this plan is the real wildcard. Remediation requirements for residential developments are so much more stringent than industrial developments. The cleanup costs are thus much higher for residential components. That is why the majority of this plan is big box and office. Less remediation is required. But residential is viewed by many as essential to the development and therefore the contamination issue will be a major roadblock to anything big. The unknown cleanup costs are what have prevented any real movement here.

So it would be foolish for the seller to factor in remediation costs in the sale price. Why would the seller devalue the worth for residential use and then have the developer "change their mind" post sale and pocket the difference..

[yukong]

No they don't. The BIA does, but not the state.

That is correct. The state has absolutely no say in what land is put in trust. Placing tribal land into trust is done by the secretary of the Department of the Interior acquiring title to property and holding it for the benefit of a Native American tribe or individual tribal members. Tribes do have to enter into compacts with the state to run gaming. But the state has no say on Indian land being put in trust. That is all federal. But only land within the historic boundaries of a tribe can be put in trust. Casinos can only go on “trust” land. Therefore no tribe can put a casino in OKC.

[yukong]

So it would be foolish for the seller to factor in remediation costs in the sale price. Why would the seller devalue the worth for residential use and then have the developer "change their mind" post sale and pocket the difference..

The problem is the seller is pricing the property at a point that is on the upper end even if the property were "clean." The seller is going to have to factor in clean-up costs, or no one is going to buy. No developer can afford to pay premium price for land that is contaminated, not knowing what the clean up cost will be. Plus, no lender is going to finance purchase money for dirty land. That is why the Funk deal fell through, and why the Sooner Development deal has stalled. The Co-op is either going to have to reduce the price to accommodate for projected cleanup costs, or they are going to have to clean it themselves. But my sources tell me the property have never been fully assessed for the extent of contamination. Therefore, no one really knows what the environmental issues are, or the possible cleanup costs. Without some idea, no one will likely take the risk. All of the development proposals I have seen include a residential component. The cleanup for residential is much more extensive and expensive than industrial. But even industrial cleanup can be extremely costly. Some of these sites can get into the 10s of millions of dollars for cleanup. Some into the hundreds of millions of dollars. The seller must get realistic or it will sit there like this for the foreseeable future.