Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)

[the michigander]

In my hometown of grand rapids, mi they just got a articulated bus for their second brt the laker line before that on their silver line they just used regular buses soot not essential to have articulated buses for brt. Also even if we did we don't have high enough ridership for articulated buses who is riding the bus past Belle isle most people who would need to go down northwest expressway would need to go past meridian all the jobs and apartments are up to council

[HOT ROD]

I’m not comparing OKC to Grand Rapids. I’m using peer cities.

[shawnw]

What makes Grand Rapids not a peer city? With a kid living there now, I go frequently and it's not too far off in a lot of ways.

[Swake]

I’m not comparing OKC to Grand Rapids. I’m using peer cities.

MSA:
Grand Rapids - 1,077,370
Oklahoma City - 1,408,950
CSA:
Grand Rapids - 1,412,470
Oklahoma City - 1,481,542

Looks pretty similar.

[HOT ROD]

MSA is the designator, not a peer for OKC but is for Tulsa.

[HOT ROD]

so maybe I should explain what I mean by peer city,.

OKC is the largest city and MSA in its state, peer cities would be also. OKC is the capital city in its state, peer cities would be also. OKC is the largest economic generator of the state, peer cities would be also. OKC has over 1.425M in it's metro from 2020 census estimate (likely more than 1.5M CSA), peer cities would have that up to roughly 2M-3M ish. OKC is a large area city limit, peer cities might also. OKC is in the South Central US, peer cities would be also or in neighboring states.

It's not JUST about population, it's about how the city acts, behaves, aspires, ranks, compares. Peer cities have things in common so it's easier to compare them.

No offense to Grand Rapids but it's not a peer of OKC. Nashville, however, IS a natural peer of OKC, as is Denver.

[shawnw]

For not a peer city they're doing better than us in some ways transit wise

[Plutonic Panda]

For not a peer city they're doing better than us in some ways transit wise

It helps being in close influence to cities like Chicago that have huge metro systems for a little of it to rub off. Oklahoma legislature has shown time and time again they are absolutely clueless and all talk about real transit. Lately there has been a few progressive developments for mass and active transit in Oklahoma that I’m sure you’re aware of it so hopefully it gets better.

There are MANY American cities waaaaaay smaller than OKC that have what would be considered world class transit networks when compared to ours. OKCs transit system is comical. The streetcar did nothing to help either. Imagine how good our bus system would be if that money was pumped into it instead.

[shawnw]

Maybe. It's a 3 hr drive from Chi to GR. Kinda like saying DFW rubs off on us.

[Plutonic Panda]

Maybe. It's a 3 hr drive from Chi to GR. Kinda like saying DFW rubs off on us.

DFW definitely rubs off on OKC IMO.

[shawnw]

How so? Not transit wise, you yourself just made that clear. So in what ways?

[Plutonic Panda]

How so? Not transit wise, you yourself just made that clear. So in what ways?

The vibes of the city are something I just can’t explain. But GR is a part of a state that has more experience with mass transit. I’m honestly not sure what we’re debating at this point. I just feel as if there are more transit options in Michigan and that is due to the government there being more willing than Oklahoma to back it.

[the michigander]

I don't know what the argument is peer city or not all I was saying you don't need articulated buses for brt

[shawnw]

I don't know what the argument is peer city or not all I was saying you don't need articulated buses for brt

Agreed, #1 thing is fast/timely etc. As a city bus regular -- and I said this to as many embark folks as I could during the public meetings -- it CANNOT be the exact same experience as the current bus system or it will fail.

[Plutonic Panda]

I don't know what the argument is peer city or not all I was saying you don't need articulated buses for brt

Most BRT systems around the world seem to have several things:

Dedicated lanes, articulated busses, larger shelters/stops, less frequent stops than local, and signal prioritization. Of course there are anomalies but NWE BRT should have articulated busses IMO

[shawnw]

Um, I rode the Silver line in LA back in 2019 and it was not articulated. It's BRT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_Line...Angeles_Metro).

[HOT ROD]

How so? Not transit wise, you yourself just made that clear. So in what ways?

shawn, DFW has only recently embraced transit and even now it's not even close to the level of Chicago or big cities in the north. Ditto Houston. Are there any cities in the region that are huge on transit?

[HOT ROD]

Most BRT systems around the world seem to have several things:

Dedicated lanes, articulated busses, larger shelters/stops, less frequent stops than local, and signal prioritization. Of course there are anomalies but NWE BRT should have articulated busses IMO

+1. Guys, our though comes from having been or traveled to other cities worldwide. OKC is spending good money on BRT so they should implement the core tenants of BRT that Panda mentioned. BRT in OKC will FAIL if people decide to give it a try but have to wait for the next bus - if every 40' bus that comes by is packed full. Just the same way as some argue the Streetcar is failing due to it not having a honeymoon period, no dual trackage, no destinations in "working class" neighborhoods.

All Im saying is we should plan big. I could go along with the lack of bus lanes for now but to implement a system with the same existing 40' bus. .. what makes it different than the current system, other than its route. BRT is suppose to be different than normal local or commuter bus transit; BRT is high frequency, high capacity bridging just below a light rail system. IMO, OKC's implementation so far sounds like a local route that should have been implemented long ago.

[Plutonic Panda]

Um, I rode the Silver line in LA back in 2019 and it was not articulated. It's BRT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_Line...Angeles_Metro).

I am familiar with the silver line. I’m not sure if this has anything to do with it but the DTLA terminus has some tight corners. Currently metro is planning a short extension of the elevated 110 express lanes to tie into Figueroa IIRC. It is a horrible downgrade from the planned express lanes to Union Station. LA metro has become extremely anti car lately and I hope with all my passion that completely changes.

With that being said I clearly stated that in most cases, at least the ones I’m familiar with BRT is articulated and that is true from most examples I’ve seen out of the country listing the variables I mentioned. Exceptions always exist. I’d rather look to Columbia, Argentina, and a few SW Asian countries on how to build BRT right than LA. LAs strong point comes from its local bus service which I believe has the highest ridership in the nation.

[Plutonic Panda]

+1. Guys, our though comes from having been or traveled to other cities worldwide. OKC is spending good money on BRT so they should implement the core tenants of BRT that Panda mentioned. BRT in OKC will FAIL if people decide to give it a try but have to wait for the next bus - if every 40' bus that comes by is packed full. Just the same way as some argue the Streetcar is failing due to it not having a honeymoon period, no dual trackage, no destinations in "working class" neighborhoods.

All Im saying is we should plan big. I could go along with the lack of bus lanes for now but to implement a system with the same existing 40' bus. .. what makes it different than the current system, other than its route. BRT is suppose to be different than normal local or commuter bus transit; BRT is high frequency, high capacity bridging just below a light rail system. IMO, OKC's implementation so far sounds like a local route that should have been implemented long ago.

If we didn’t waste our money on the streetcar we could have easily accomplished all of this and had money for NWE BRT and beefed up local bus service.

[shawnw]

shawn, DFW has only recently embraced transit and even now it's not even close to the level of Chicago or big cities in the north. Ditto Houston. Are there any cities in the region that are huge on transit?

Sorry but I disagree here somewhat. You've got commuter rail there (the TRE), streetcar, and several light rail lines (oldest two are 25 years old). They are significantly ahead of us.

[Plutonic Panda]

Sorry but I disagree here somewhat. You've got commuter rail there (the TRE), streetcar, and several light rail lines (oldest two are 25 years old). They are significantly ahead of us.

Yet given all of that the system is complete an utter joke compared to cities like Chicago. Admittedly I’ve never been to Grand Rapids but looking at the satellite view the city appears much smaller than OKC and I’d have to imagine the commuting patterns and lifestyle must be different. People in Chicago commuter much longer distances than OKC. I’d like to see how far away the cities are that make up the CSA. I’ve always felt OKC should have or is close to expanding its CSA influence.

IIRC, Dallas has added Oklahoma cities into its CMSA. Dallas is also on the cusp of more transit lines with HSR/Hyperloop being studied between Fort Worth and Dallas. HSR between Houston and Dallas. A new partial orbital heavy rail line. A few small extensions of current LRT lines. A new LRT transit tunnel in downtown. Dallas is certainly way ahead of OKC though OKC is behind GR as you mentioned as I’ve seen multiple projects in GR for expanded bus and transit systems.

[HOT ROD]

Sorry but I disagree here somewhat. You've got commuter rail there (the TRE), streetcar, and several light rail lines (oldest two are 25 years old). They are significantly ahead of us.

shawn, DFW is ahead of us. But DFW is NOT a transit oriented metro as it's just recently joined the club. 25 years is not old particularly given the population size of it and Houston. That suburb/freeway culture has rubbed off on OKC.

Compare to Grand Rapids has Chicago AND Detroit (and Cleveland nearby, others) which have are Transit oriented and have been for a long time (forever in Chicago's case). So weekend visits to those cities rub off on you so that you have a transit educated populous that demands "something" in their city. Honestly this is the main reason why I said they weren't necessarily a peer to OKC; not the largest city in their state, not the capital, better transit culture/populous compared to OKC.

which also proves another point, a smaller city has better transit than OKC. Something we can definitely learn from but I'd look to peers (Denver, Indy, Nashville, even Dallas/Houston in some respects/being "late" to the club) on implementing ours.

[LocoAko]

.The only downside I can see though is if there are not dedicated bus lane at the entrance to a traffic light then there will be vehicles ahead of the bus, rendering the priority signal useless. ....

My impression (which could be wrong) is that signal prioritization wasn't going to include shutting down the entire intersection for the bus but rather the bus sending a signal to the light ahead to turn green (at least for most intersections without turns), but that it would otherwise drive normally in the lane. That way cars ahead of it would benefit and get to proceed along with the bus, but wouldn't block it.

[the michigander]

My question is who is going to be riding a articulated bus we can't even fill up a 40ft bus now. Also unless they make some changes the route 5 goes thru pretty much the same route leaving the terminal and there is not much to go to between Belle isle and meridian so i dont see to many riders. Not if it went to council it would be different