Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)

[shawnw]

Might be related to the work going on right now to connect bert cooper with the under construction greenway trail.

[shawnw]

[shawnw]

BRT Town Hall on Thursday at 12p and 5:30p

https://twitter.com/EMBARKOK/status/1374010736712822790

[Plutonic Panda]

It seems like we aren’t even getting articulated busses. This project is an absolute, calling it bus rapid transit. BRT mainly uses articulated vehicles, dedicated lanes, and other bus specific infrastructure. This will be none of those things other than maybe signal prioritization and enhanced shelters/stops which isn’t saying a lot. It is basically enhanced bus service.

https://freepressokc.com/embark-offi...ual-town-hall/

[LakeEffect]

It seems like we aren’t even getting articulated busses. This project is an absolute, calling it bus rapid transit. BRT mainly uses articulated vehicles, dedicated lanes, and other bus specific infrastructure. This will be none of those things other than maybe signal prioritization and enhanced shelters/stops which isn’t saying a lot. It is basically enhanced bus service.

https://freepressokc.com/embark-offi...ual-town-hall/

Agree, although the articulated buses are probably the least important issue...

[Plutonic Panda]

Agree, although the articulated buses are probably the least important issue...

You’re not wrong but that was just the straw that made me decide all of this.

[HOT ROD]

yet another great idea that has been Okie-doked.

OKC has had MANY peer cities to learn from yet we continue to think small time and implement just at the breaking point of legitimacy. Drives me crazy!!! Since this thing was approved they've had years to look at other cities, possibly get discount(s) on bus orders in tandem with other cities, and plan for the future. BRT doesn't work without frequent buses with CAPACITY preferably in their own ROW particularly in the urban/congested sections with real park n rides in the hinterlands. Otherwise, we just have a new bus route with fancy stops.

Can we ever think big and implement something grand, ala Devon Tower? And even that was Okie-Doked; down from it's planned height. WRWA another excellent example, can't build the entire building now just Okie doke it so we can pour more dollars in later. ...

I think it's time this city is run by planners who get out to benchmark other cities' successes rather than engineers who are too overly concerned about whether Oklahoman's can navigate a roundabout.

[shawnw]

I'm sure everybody involved knows exactly what's wrong with this plan and are doing the best they can. They also know there's not enough courage in the city to make big choices regarding this kind of infrastructure (for example, we know half the council would in no way vote to eliminate a lane of NW Expway so it can be a dedicated bus lane, they would never hear the end of it).

[HOT ROD]

and yet it still will take them $30M to purchase the same 40 foot buses that we already have to stop at streetcar stops along existing city streets. ... I think that could be implemented with half of that and sooner than 3-5 years, double the funding (via the federal govt) and I'd expect a line that really goes somewhere (like say, downtown to Piedmont, providing a real connection to residents all along the way) with articulated or double floor buses. ..

Nope - let's Okie Doke it instead, we can't give the people of OKC the infrastructure other cities have; they will then demand it for everything.

[Jersey Boss]

yet another great idea that has been Okie-doked.

OKC has had MANY peer cities to learn from yet we continue to think small time and implement just at the breaking point of legitimacy. Drives me crazy!!! Since this thing was approved they've had years to look at other cities, possibly get discount(s) on bus orders in tandem with other cities, and plan for the future. BRT doesn't work without frequent buses with CAPACITY preferably in their own ROW particularly in the urban/congested sections with real park n rides in the hinterlands. Otherwise, we just have a new bus route with fancy stops.

Can we ever think big and implement something grand, ala Devon Tower? And even that was Okie-Doked; down from it's planned height. WRWA another excellent example, can't build the entire building now just Okie doke it so we can pour more dollars in later. ...

I think it's time this city is run by planners who get out to benchmark other cities' successes rather than engineers who are too overly concerned about whether Oklahoman's can navigate a roundabout.

Devon Tower is a far cry from grand. The owners can not even perform routine repairs in a timely fashion.
Okie dokie.

[LocoAko]

and yet it still will take them $30M to purchase the same 40 foot buses that we already have to stop at streetcar stops along existing city streets. ... I think that could be implemented with half of that and sooner than 3-5 years, double the funding (via the federal govt) and I'd expect a line that really goes somewhere (like say, downtown to Piedmont, providing a real connection to residents all along the way) with articulated or double floor buses. ..

Nope - let's Okie Doke it instead, we can't give the people of OKC the infrastructure other cities have; they will then demand it for everything.

It sounds like you should take your complaints to the (apparent) majority opinions of the residents of OKC sprawl rather than the planners trying to make this work. Shawn is right -- it's not that the planners don't know anything about BRT, but you try removing a lane from Classen or NW Expwy and see what happens. Weren't there people even on this site, which I think tends to be more pro-urbanization than the average resident, claiming Classen faced major congestion and we could never consider removing a lane for bikes or buses? Not to mention the stigma that buses have in OKC. Ask residents of suburban NW OKC whether they'd prefer to take a bus or their own car to work and see what the majority say. I've heard it myself many times. Better infrastructure might help convince them otherwise, but these attitudes are prevalent and IMO are more likely to limit the success of this project than the lack of articulated buses....

Frankly, I want this project to work as much as anyone (I live right along the route and feel invested), but with ONLY 10-15 minute headways I'm not sure I'd be in support of removing a lane either. Now if we could actually get something like 2-3 minute frequencies then yes, I'd want a dedicated lane. But having a lane sit completely empty for 14.5 out of every 15 minutes? To me the issue is simply needing many more buses, something I think could, in theory, be a possibility if the route is successful. Maybe that hope will be proven to be naive...

[Plutonic Panda]

So add a lane. The median on NWE is incredibly wide. I don’t think you’d run into the same resistance removing a lane on Classen. Removing a lane on NWE is not a good thing and shouldn’t be done.

Classen should be narrowed to 4 lanes with protected cycle and bus lanes. A few overpasses should also be built for busses and possibly even cars to use for a toll.

[LakeEffect]

Classen should be narrowed to 4 lanes with protected cycle and bus lanes.

Thousand times yes, this.

[Plutonic Panda]

Thousand times yes, this.

We also need many more pedestrian crosswalks that are raised to calm traffic.

[d-usa]

I was in Houston yesterday, and it was both nice and sad to see what BRT could have been here:





Dedicated center lanes, articulated buses, dedicated signaling, nice stations...

[Rover]

First, ours hasn't even been built yet and you are referring to "what might have been here". LOL

Second, it strikes me there is NOBODY there.

[Laramie]

Yes indeed Houston has a model BRT system. Been there, seen most of its transit and believe me their vices for driving around in the city really temps one to use BRT. Imagine a city with a huge CBD skyline and several more skylines comparable to OKC, Tulsa and Little Rock.

OKC BRT has an adequate system covering the needs of our city. The few times I have had an opportunity to ride Embark, it covers a good portion of the city. It takes planning if you ever decide to use the bus. Times I have taken my vehicle to S. W. 74th for service and instead of using dealer courtesy driver service, I've explored use of the bus. There are always some interesting characters on the bus who sometimes challenge the patience of the driver as well as bus patrons. Anyway, that's a whole difference story.

Embark can take you within the basic inner city from North Britton to S.W 74th with the use of transfers. OKC is not as dense as Houston or Dallas; nor does our ridership come close to their numbers.

Most people here are dependent on motor vehicle transportation; but if you ever get the chance, ride Embark.

[shawnw]

I would be okay if we did ours like Grand Rapids has done, which is they took a four lane road and the outside lanes are bus only, BUT, only during rush hour, so there are lanes that are marked bus only, but there are a lot of signs as well that say "Bus Only 7am-10am, 4-6pm" etc.

[HOT ROD]

wont OKC have dedicated outside bus only lanes?

I think the issue is that the lanes aren't restricted line Houston's, not that they wont be marked. ..

FWIW, we have "BRT" here in the Seattle Tacoma area too and there are NO markings, no dedicated lanes. So now just imagine how successful it is (or could be).

[shawnw]

I didn't go to the most recent (I think virtual this time) meeting, but the last one I went to there seemed to be some hesitancy to committing to dedicated lanes of any sort.

[BoulderSooner]

wont OKC have dedicated outside bus only lanes?

I think the issue is that the lanes aren't restricted line Houston's, not that they wont be marked. ..

FWIW, we have "BRT" here in the Seattle Tacoma area too and there are NO markings, no dedicated lanes. So now just imagine how successful it is (or could be).

no the dedicated "lanes" are only at the intersections

[shawnw]

That's right, and the bus will get the signal first so it can beat that traffic.

[Teo9969]

You can add in dedicated lanes after the fact and where it makes most sense. No need really to do it on Classen as traffic counts aren't really high enough and congestion not bad enough that it would be necessary. Not sure the same could be said of NWX Westbound from May and onward and Eastbound inward to May during rushour.

[shawnw]

fair point

[HOT ROD]

I think as long as the bus has dedicated lanes at/near the stops and signal priority it should be ok to start - pretty much the same as the "BRT" we have here (which has no dedicated lanes, btw). The big difference between us is our buses are articulated which I thought was the standard for BRT.

maybe OKC can try out the 40' bus and change them to articulated later once ridership builds. But everywhere else I've seen BRT implemented they started with articulated so that you could accommodate any loads and expand capacity introducing more buses as needed.

The only thing I worry about with OKC's launch is the stops likely will be built for 40' so to expand to much longer 60' articulated (and longer) we'll have to reinvent the wheel so to say. Hopefully the stops OKC implements will be long enough for future buses + dedicated entry/exit (at least) + signal priority throughout and it will be a success.

BTW - for those who don't understand signal priority, it means the bus has its own dedicated traffic light that switches while all other traffic is stopped. This allows the bus to do whatever it wants/needs including making a left turn from the far right or a left into the far right for a stop, so on. All other traffic stopped is the key, while the bus makes its moves.

The only downside I can see though is if there are not dedicated bus lane at the entrance to a traffic light then there will be vehicles ahead of the bus, rendering the priority signal useless. ....

something to consider EMBARK!!! BRT will fail if it's not frequent and fast. ...