Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

[Mott]

In fact, you could take this further, reroute the SW Chief awat from Newton and Trinidad, CO to KC, Tulsa, OKC, Amarillo to Albuquerque. Far higher access to ridership.

That would be some train ride. Excellent track on BNSF Chicago to KC, then on the old FRISCO (BNSF) to Ft. Scott, then to Afton, then to Tulsa, then on the SLWC @ 25 to OKC. Now, north to Perry on the BNSF, and with a new connection, west on the old FRISCO to Enid, and Avard, and finally back on the old ATSF mainline to Amarillo.

[mugofbeer]

A prior post said money would have to be spent - meaning new track where needed. You want more ridership, you need to bring the trains where the people are. They aren't in Newton, KS, SW Kansas, Trinidad, CO. Especially Newton, KS at 3AM.

[HOT ROD]

the likely argument will be - wait for it. .... that people along the existing route will suffer if they lose it.

but I agree it should be rerouted to connect the major cities. I'd imagine very significant ridership on CHI-KC-TUL-OKC- DFW and OKC-AMA-ABQ. Western OK is more populated than Western KS. ...

Best case scenario is to do the KC-Wichita-OKC-FTW now, then add in KC-TUL-OKC-AMA-ABQ. OKC is the biggest beneficiary with three routes OKC-FTW (which is now), OKC-KC-CHI (likely umcoming), and OKC-ABQ (vision).

How can we make this happen? Significant ridership can be attained imo.

[Rover]

Has an actual fact based demand forecast been done for alternate routes? There are legit ways for obtaining the information. I would think that would be the first step.

[Mott]

The reroute is already being talked about, but it would be Newton (Wichita) to Wellington to Amarillo to Clovis to Belen, then to CA. Because of the cost of maintaining to old ATSF main line over Raton pass to Lamy, and to Albuquerque. Amtrak runs only one train each way, with NM leasing it from the BNSF. On a long distance train, somebody is going to get the train at 3am. Do you expect leaving Chicago at 3 am would be good for ridership? If the Rock Island had been saved you would have a direct route from OKC to Amarillo, and then west on ATSF mainline to CA. If Amtrak’s Lone Star had been saved, ( and I rode it a lot, as well as working as head brakeman, always had lot’s of passengers, purely political not to fund it), we would have a direct train to KC, CH, and south to FW, and Houston. You just can’t run without the rail being in shape, and to fix that, lot’s of money.

[Mott]

And when you feel safe on the train, I would suggest ride the train from Newton to Albuquerque and enjoy the trip over Raton pass while it’s still possible. Lovely ride over Raton, and Glorieta Pass.

[shawnw]

https://twitter.com/PassRailOK/statu...86882574979074

[jedicurt]

https://twitter.com/PassRailOK/statu...86882574979074

i wonder if all of those were agreed to, what the timeline would be. 2050 completion date?

[BoulderSooner]

no political in any way but Biden makes all of these rail projects more likely ..

[catch22]

no political in any way but Biden makes all of these rail projects more likely ..

I'm hoping for a large infrastructure bill. I would love for Colorado to receive a grant to fast track the front range rail system.

[Plutonic Panda]

I really hope Biden pulls it off. I was reading an article today that suggested Biden was going to fast track the Hudson River rail tunnels which can’t come soon enough.

Biden is also a huge fan of Amtrak. I suspect we’ll see some good news on that end.

[shawnw]

I asked the Passenger Rail OK twitter account for a link to their extension assessment report. Here it is:

http://passengerrailok.org/memberfil...ate_030520.pdf

[Mott]

I asked the Passenger Rail OK twitter account for a link to their extension assessment report. Here it is:

http://passengerrailok.org/memberfil...ate_030520.pdf

That’s a good read, interesting the Amtrak Lone Star ran a top speed of 79 mph back in 1979. Then the ATSF had ATS, which would stop the train if it went by a signal over speed. That, and “super elevation” on the curves, the outside rail being higher, allowing for a faster speed which has been removed. But the train ran without the track and bridge improvements proposed. A definite wish list to improve the freight train operation at somebody else’s expense. There weren’t many places where the train actually went 79 mph. If all those improvements where made, then a commuter train Edmond to Norman would be a possibility.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm hoping for a large infrastructure bill. I would love for Colorado to receive a grant to fast track the front range rail system.

I just read this article about a plan for the front range proposal and I have to say, as much as I’d love to see passenger rail in the US, what the f@ck are the leaders in CO thinking to believe that spending this much money on this is even remotely a good idea!?

That could cost $1.5 billion to $2.5 billion, according to a draft report presented to the Front Range Passenger Rail Commission on Friday. A second phase would add service between Colorado Springs and Pueblo at a cost of $200 million to $300 million.

“This approach allows for a starter service and ultimately supports the rail commission's longer-term vision,” Carla Perez, senior strategic consultant with global design firm HDR, told the commission. “But it's really a way of getting this program going.”

An adjustment of Amtrak’s Southwest Chief under discussion now that would add service to Pueblo could connect some Eastern Plains communities and Trinidad to the Front Range line as well.

The commission’s longer-term vision is for a much faster, more frequent, and costlier line stretching from Cheyenne, Wyoming to Trinidad and perhaps points south. Speeds would top out at 90 to 110 miles per hour on newly laid track, trains would run every 30 minutes at peak times, and it all could cost between $7.8 billion to $14.2 billion.

"That number is something that probably we won't be looking at in terms of seeing on the ground for probably 20 to 30 years from now,” said Randy Grauberger, director of the rail project. “But it's certainly the long-term vision, when the population of Colorado supports that and we have the money available."

- https://www.cpr.org/2020/12/04/front...zeCRG3ogosDOOM

Unreal. 15 billion for a train moving 110 MPH between two cities 70ish miles apart to serve 8-9k passengers a day when it is built decades from now. That plan requires an interim solution of using existing freight tracks with upgrades and train orders coming in a 2-3 billion so the train can move roughly at a 45MPH average speed.

Why not just revise the I-25 plan to remove tolls, build the new lane free, build an eighth lane for busses only with cars available to use it for a high toll to ensure busses moving at a minimum speed of 65-70MPH, and use the left over billions to either address the backlog of road and rail maintenance projects or pump it all into better transit systems for the metros of CS and Denver which would in turn likely induce more riders into a Denver-CS BRT system?

[shawnw]

Rail has always been expensive. And "why not just use buses" has long been a proposed "fix" for rail. Don't you ever wonder why there isn't an amazing, high speed, national bus system by now?

[Plutonic Panda]

Rail has always been expensive. And "why not just use buses" has long been a proposed "fix" for rail. Don't you ever wonder why there isn't an amazing, high speed, national bus system by now?

Good point but in this case we’re talking about two cities less than 100 miles apart. I understand rail is more expensive and no doubt has its advantages.

Japan is building a MagLev line running over 300MPH between Osaka and Tokyo(some of the most densely populated cities on earth) for around 50 billion. Those two cities are 180 miles apart and have several mountainous terrain segments between them requiring extensive tunneling.

Doing some ballpark math, why is Japan able to build a train traveling 300+MPH that levitates with magnets through a mountainous terrain in tunnel after tunnel for for less than 300 million per mile when it takes us around 215 million per mile to build a train on relatively flat terrain that only goes 110 MPH!?

I’m not suggesting the typical “why not high speed busses nationwide” argument. Again, keep this in perspective. These busses really aren’t high speed, just going at highway speeds which almost twice as fast as the proposed average train speed with the interim plan that will be with us for decades. The existing nationwide bus network(Greyhound) sucks and has no doubt helped to enforce a negative bus stereotype many hold in America. But in Asia and South America bus systems prove to be an amazing assets.

I support a national HSR system. I’ve argued time and time again with many who claim a national HSR system doesn’t make sense and only regional does. I’m not anti rail. But this plan is insanity and if this is any indication of the future costs of rail than we need serious infrastructure reform now. I can only imagine the cost of building and upgrading rail through the Rocky Mountains. Might make California’s ridiculous failure(which I doubt sees the light of day) look like a bargain.

[Plutonic Panda]

PS, I’m not naive. No doubt rail can and does have a higher overall capacity(when done right) and generally has better overall reliability given it can generally operate in inclement weather whereas a bus might have be delayed. I bet trains also boast a higher safety rating. Even then, I still don’t like this proposal and think we should stick with busses until costs can get under control.

[catch22]

The area between Colorado Springs and Denver is not western Oklahoma. Terrain is a big issue, with a 2,000 foot elevation change as you pass between the two cities. This area is called the Palmer Divide, and it regularly gets snow events measured in feet from Nov through May. The highway system regularly closes between the two metros during the winter time. Trains can plow through the snow with ease. Buses cannot.

[catch22]

Also this $15 billion number you are quoting is for the full 110mph system from Cheyenne WY to Pueblo, CO which is 213 miles. Only $1.5-2 billion for Ft Collins to Co Springs. Very reasonable really as that is the section that would have the most immediate impact between Colorado's 2 largest cities which have very unreliable travel times between them. I-25 closures can last days at a time in the winter. If you read the article you posted they say that is a long term goal, likely 20 to 30 years away. But getting the pieces together for Ft Collins-Denver-Springs-Pueblo can be done for a lot less than that.

[Plutonic Panda]

Idk man for 15 billion the train should be maglev lol. But seriously the train should move faster than 110MPH.

[SEMIweather]

I lived in Colorado for literally nine months but I can promise you that was enough time to realize that they'll never be able to expand I-25 wide enough to keep up with the exploding population everywhere between Colorado Springs and Fort Collins. Everywhere in between the north side of C-470 and Fort Collins is sprawling out nearly as much as the northern Dallas suburbs. The Denver/Colorado Springs corridor isn't growing quite as quickly due in part to the terrain issues that catch mentioned, but even there, Castle Rock will easily be around 100k people in a couple of decades and there's plenty of new development happening up around the Air Force Academy.

[Plutonic Panda]

Hate to say but another study here. At the very least talks are happening which is better than nothing. Hopefully with Biden we’ll get some real passenger rail improvements in Oklahoma.

https://twitter.com/oklahomatransit/...502089221?s=21

[Plutonic Panda]

Amtrak has proposed a massive overhaul and expansion with Oklahoma's Heartland Flyer Route to get enhanced service and an extension to Newton. This is Oklahoma's chance to really invest in statewide passenger rail and even connect to Tulsa.



https://www.businessinsider.com/map-...re-plan-2021-4

[gopokes88]

Lmao what a stupid idea

[Plutonic Panda]

I’m on the fence about some of the plans. I’m very excited for expanded service in Oklahoma though.