Streetcar

[Mott]

Who was the consultant, and how were they chosen?

[Anonymous.]

I agree about the time.

The streetcar moves very slow already. And I still have inconsistent experiences when I do ride it. Sometimes the driver stops at all stops regardless of people requesting to be let off and if anyone is at the upcoming stop. To me, it makes no sense to ever stop at a stop unless there is potential riders or a current rider has pressed the "let me off" button. If the streetcars are running too close together, then use the proper dwelling zone or come to a complete stop at the next stop when there are no riders/minimal amount of riders. The entire idea is to move people as fast as possible, the streetcar should only be purposely slowing down with zero or a very small amount of riders inside.

The streetcar should almost never have to stop at a red light, this is and likely always will be a problem since not all intersections are prioritized.

[LakeEffect]

Who was the consultant, and how were they chosen?

Jacobs, but through an iteration of company purchases they'd made. My wish would have been the team that did Kansas City's Streetcar. The Jacobs team began their work before the Maps 3 subcommittee had a say in who they hired, in a way. The Jacobs team had been involved since the Fixed Guideway Study, so their institutional knowledge won out as the plan progressed. I have never agreed with the consultant team's push for the one-way pairs.

[BoulderSooner]

Jacobs, but through an iteration of company purchases they'd made. My wish would have been the team that did Kansas City's Streetcar. The Jacobs team began their work before the Maps 3 subcommittee had a say in who they hired, in a way. The Jacobs team had been involved since the Fixed Guideway Study, so their institutional knowledge won out as the plan progressed. I have never agreed with the consultant team's push for the one-way pairs.

i think the political realities of the stakeholders and geographic make up of OKC had much more to do with the route then the consultants ... and this was seen in both the AA process and the MAPS streetcar committee meetings

[soonerguru]

i think the political realities of the stakeholders and geographic make up of OKC had much more to do with the route then the consultants ... and this was seen in both the AA process and the MAPS streetcar committee meetings

Agree completely, with somewhat of a limited insider's view. The demonization of "couplets," though, is ridiculous. The couplets are actually not that bad of a deal. The biggest barriers to doing the more linear lines is that it creates larger gaps between stops; the studies determined people would be loathe to walk more than two or three blocks to go to a stop.

The other issue is if, say, they wanted to direct them north to 23rd Street, it would almost have to pass through Heritage HIlls or Mesta Park, lending credence to the "transportation for the rich" argument streetcar opponents were making at the time, not to mention the likely NIMBY opposition to have them running through those neighborhoods.

It is impossible to avoid discussing the councilmembers at the time when discussing streetcar design outcomes.

I rode the streetcar frequently before Covid-19, but not once since. I would probably not ride a bus or a subway either (or fly in a plane or maybe even take a Lyft or an Uber), so any discussion about streetcar ridership right now is a ridiculous red herring.

[Anonymous.]

IMO, this should have been the route. Double-tracked and center lane. Around 6 miles total of rail. (We currently have just under 5 looped). Then you can expand off of this main route with single lines.

23rd, Broadway, and EK Gaylord are all already wide enough for this.

[Canoe]

IMO, this should have been the route. Double-tracked and center lane. Around 6 miles total of rail. (We currently have just under 5 looped). Then you can expand off of this main route with single lines.

23rd, Broadway, and EK Gaylord are all already wide enough for this.

I would add a park loop to the west.

[OkiePoke]

Went to KC recently and Wow!, our streetcar is an embarrassment compared to it. The KC SC is actually fast, most of the reason is it doesn't have to slow down to a snails pace for turns. Ridership was quite high, and free is a factor, but the excellent design or the route is the driving factor.

[HOT ROD]

I think another thing that prompted the city to go with this single line system was there were significant opposition from the bus proponents, so the city wanted to try to please everybody with a stop while also not openly catoring to any one district. Also remember this was thought to be a downtown circular, so from the beginning the eyes were to create a network like a bus would run - one side of the street circling around downtown similar to the trolley route(s) the city originally had. .....

Anyway, the good news is we can add in dual track later. I personally dont think dual is needed EVERYWHERE but I do agree with most of the above that the system needed a backbone to start with.

My proposal would have had dual-track down Grand Ave: Classen to Lincoln for the E-W (2 mi) and dual-track down Broadway/EK Gaylord: Capital Hill to N 13th (4mi). I would build in switches at the termini and also at Robinson (S bound only), Hudson, Walker (N bound only), Oklahoma, Walnut, N 10th, N 4th, Reno to allow for easy integration new lines. Also, I would have put the maintenance center on the southside of the river leaving the current spot for prime development or a much needed parking garage (for that area of the park/Union Station).

This idea would cover: AAlley, CBD, Amtrak/Multi-modal, Park-Union, Capital Hill, Film Row, Arts District, and Bricktown where lines could easily be added in the future spuring into Deep Deuce, OHC and on to the capital and midtown, Plaza, Asian District with a spur down 23rd Penn to MLK.

The initial line would provide the backbone of the system where lights could be prioritized and people could get used to using the lines where it already hits some existing working class neighborhoods and employment areas. New lines would add to the backbone, creating a network where people could really get from A to Z using the lines.

Again, we CAN still get there - we'd just have to double track Broadway and Grand Ave extending that the length of downtown. That's actually probably not too expensive to do since we've already done surveys for planning and we're probably only talking about adding track on one side of the Broadway section and Grand Ave with full dual needed for the EK G section and W past Hudson - we just need the political will to make it happen.

I think if we added in those dual sections and additions to make the backbone dual, people would probably say we have a nice system.

[Anonymous.]

Your route idea is along the lines of mine, Hot Rod. Create a fast-track spine and then spur from there.

The good news is we can still accomplish this, and with slight modifications, the current system can be used as branches off the spine. The bad news is this would disrupt Broadway between 11th and 4th yet again.

Also, personally I believe we are venturing further into future funding issue as the streetcar is becoming black-eyed (thank you pandemic ��). We must make fares free and promote ridership ASAP to save the future of "light rail" in OKC.

[Teo9969]

Bottom line - if we do not expand the system, there was no viable route for this to be a good investment. It will be mighty unfortunate if the streetcar is deemed a failure and no further expansion comes because people expected this to be a success as a final leg with nothing feeding in. I honestly expect that ridership would jump dramatically just by getting the commuter rail up and running. Fixed guideway and subsequent OK GO! studies were pretty clear that we needed better transit into downtown, not within downtown itself. Unfortunately, it's hard for citizens to take a 20-40 year view, especially in 2020.

The KC streetcar is simply not a good comparison - it serves it's geography well because it's geography is *actually* that simple. Downtown OKC's is not that simple. SidBurgess, bless the man, is the only person I saw who made a good argument for a straight-line track and that was up and down Walker. But if you think people are vocal about it now, imagine the deafening noise from people if it didn't go to Bricktown or pass nearby the Arena. Unfortunately instead of having 2 really strong districts stacked on top of each other like KC, OKC has 5 burgeoning districts that are just going to take time to mature and connect. Bricktown - Midtown - Arts District - MAPS 3 "District" ...none of that is close to each other and the CBD still does not do enough to be the centerpiece for those districts to come together.

Also doesn't help that downtown housing is stagnating because people are still willing to buy closer in (home prices in the 23rd/I44/I235 loop are just going bananas) and maintain their suburban lifestyle rather than committing to the (attempt at) urban offerings of downtown.

[SEMIweather]

Your route idea is along the lines of mine, Hot Rod. Create a fast-track spine and then spur from there.

The good news is we can still accomplish this, and with slight modifications, the current system can be used as branches off the spine. The bad news is this would disrupt Broadway between 11th and 4th yet again.

Also, personally I believe we are venturing further into future funding issue as the streetcar is becoming black-eyed (thank you pandemic ��). We must make fares free and promote ridership ASAP to save the future of "light rail" in OKC.

I've been very worried about what the pandemic (and accompanying economic collapse) means for the outcome of the RTA sales tax vote that's scheduled to come up in the next year or two.

[Teo9969]

I've been very worried about what the pandemic (and accompanying economic collapse) means for the outcome of the RTA sales tax vote that's scheduled to come up in the next year or two.

My wife is from Buenos Aires and every time I'm down there I always get caught thinking "If cost of food, clothing, entertainment all come out within 5% of OKC, and rent is really only about $200 cheaper, why does it feel like this place is soooo MUCH cheaper than OKC".

Then I remember that my wife and I could both get around the entire city for <$80/month. That's one month of auto-insurance for one car. Forget gasoline, capital costs of owning the car (and interest if you've got a loan). Easily a $500/month discrepancy).

In theory, a healthy public transit system lifts a major financial burden off of families and increases dependability. I'd love to know how many jobs are lost every year due to lack of reliable transportation.

Obviously it's not likely that an RTA tax is going to do much to help the people who live out at 30th and Council, but it would be pretty easy to target certain areas of the city and ensure that there is affordable housing in those areas.

[Dob Hooligan]

The median on Robinson from NW 16th to 23rd is the original streetcar line. I think the line went west on 23rd also. Some of those could be more easily reused IMO.

[Canoe]

The median on Robinson from NW 16th to 23rd is the original streetcar line. I think the line went west on 23rd also. Some of those could be more easily reused IMO.

You would have to dig up old trees, remove the old tracks, and fight heritage hills, so not it couldn't be easily reused.

[Teo9969]

You would have to dig up old trees, remove the old tracks, and fight heritage hills, so not it couldn't be easily reused.

Dob's got some monster boxing gloves - Heritage Hills stands no chance.

[Pete]

[Teo9969]

September should be beautiful, if we could get 20k that would be awesome...

...as long as everyone is wearing masks.

[HOT ROD]

looking good actually

[Plutonic Panda]

Good Twitter thread on why the streetcar was so stupid and should never have been built. Well, really the route design but overall I hate streetcars.

https://twitter.com/christofspieler/...339127809?s=21

He specifically mentions the OKC streetcar route in this thread. Good read.

[Laramie]

Really want to see what the OKC Streetcar will do if it is on a free ride system 24-7 similar to Kansas City's streetcar system.

In all fairness to OKC, there's a lot of on-going construction projects which IMO is an obstacle to the streetcar that serves multiple routes color coded by the various streetcars serving Bricktown, Downtown, Midtown and a full oval route.

Once many of the construction projects are completed; we'll have a better gauge on the Streetcar. The affects of Covid-19 has thrown a wrench into the whole operating system.

The Streetcar needs to be a free ride system since it serves the core area districts.

[HOT ROD]

It would (and did) kill Kansas City's streetcar if (when) it was free.

[Mr. Blue Sky]

It would (and did) kill Kansas City's streetcar if (when) it was free.

It’s still free - and awesome. Ridership is high, not only because it’s free but because it’s practical.
Why we did what we did, I’ll never understand.
straight-line is the only way to go. Everything is walkable within 2-3 blocks of any stop.
https://kcstreetcar.org/
Expansion plans to Country Club Plaza.

[foodiefan]

It’s still free - and awesome. Ridership is high, not only because it’s free but because it’s practical.
Why we did what we did, I’ll never understand.
straight-line is the only way to go. Everything is walkable within 2-3 blocks of any stop.
https://kcstreetcar.org/
Expansion plans to Country Club Plaza.

. . .this +1

[jccouger]

Yeah they route we chose was poor. Its not practical and serves little purpose for transportation. Its a gimmick like our canal water taxis. It could still spur development along the route just like the canal but it truly was the worst maps project of all time, IMO