Oklahoma's Fight To Save HB 1804

[Major]

I found an Oklahoma blog that is keeping a list of actions a number of organizations are taking in their effort to defeal our right to protect our borders from the tens of thousands illegal foreign nationals in our state. One national Christian group has ties to the White House and will attend a conference at the U.S. Dept of Education in a couple weeks. Their president, Miguel Rivera, has been to Oklahoma several times and calls us racists for passing HB 1804. This group is planning to sue our state!

What I found here was an eye opener. I'm thinking this is a good time for all legal citizens of Oklahoma to ban together.

zTruth : HB 1804 Oklahoma's Fight To Protect Its Citizens

[Midtowner]

1804 is probably unconstitutional anyhow. As much as I like the concept of the law, I'm pretty sure that state laws passed to govern immigration will find themselves completely preempted by federal immigration law. Since the federal immigration laws vest complete authority in the INS, I can't imagine that a state could intrude on that authority.

We shall see.

[BDP]

Man, we always need someone to hate.

I don't mind the competition. Bring it on. Free labor markets mean open borders. Big deal... You still want that $.35 sweatshirt from Wal-Mart. Then relax and enjoy the cheap stuff brought to you by immigrants.

I don't know if HB 1804 is racist, but that link sure is, at the very least it's a bit hysterical and paranoid.

Americans demand cheap stuff and high wages. The only way to reconcile that is immigrant labor and/or outsourcing. This is not about lines in the sand or stupid culture wars, it's about economics and our consumer market creates the demand for immigrant labor, not the other way around.

[soonerguru]

Major,

You should direct your ire toward US Corporations, who are profiting from this immigrant labor. Big business -- and small business, too -- will cease to function as we know it without this kind of labor.

And if these "close the borders" (an impossibility) and "deport the illegals" laws work as they're intended, expect more layoffs as aforementioned US companies simply shut down their operations here and offshore them.

Don't blame judges and pols, blame globalization.

[okcitian]

I've heard many times anti-immigration laws such as, HB 1804, has a linkage to "ethnic cleansing", i never hear people talk about other illegals, other than Mexican nationals moving in this country/state. One thing i've noticed is how ignorant Americans tend to think of the economic scale Mexico is but that's besides my point. I do believe that it is scary to be illegal. If i were from Mexico, without skills, in poverty level I may decide that the U.S. is my only option, yet I would probably prefer Canada since its an easier route to take. My mom came from Mexico, legal, yet she didn't have any struggle whatsoever in Mexico since she came from an upper middle class neighboorhood and moved here since she married my dad. One thing she has complained is how people make thier face once they hear her accent and doesn't get this same reaction in larger cities. Immigrant labor is needed for many reasons and I surely hope amnesty can be given. One country that has benefitted greatly from immigration that I could think of is Spain, which had brought an easier route for latin americans and is becoming one of the wealthiest countries in the EU. I don't know of any troubles the U.S. has our own birthrate but Spain needed it since they are running out of a working population since its such a developed country.

[Midtowner]

Gloom and doom...

As I said before, I don't expect these laws to work because they're preempted by federal law. Now.. if the feds ever actually decide to enforce the law on the books? God save the illegals.. they're going to really be toast.

At any rate, I do not think there's an "ethnic cleansing." That is pure hyperbole. If your ethnicity is being cleansed, generally speaking, you know it.. or rather you don't because there's a fair chance you're dead.

The bottom line is that when I go to another country, do I respect their laws? Yep. Absolutely. Illegals (from all countries) do not respect our laws. You may contend that they do, but fella, they're here ILLEGALLY, so your argument goes no further. Dead on arrival.

You talk to me of struggle... all I hear is blah blah blah. Immigrate LEGALLY. It ain't impossible. It's not cheap -- but not impossible. Also, it's probably really hard if you're just here to collect a welfare check as many illegals (from all countries) are doing right now (before you start in on me, think of the word many and the fact that it defies definition, I haven't researched this, but the statistics from admittedly questionable sources do tell me that there are a sizable number of illegals receiving TANF, WIC, etc.).

Yes, immigrant labor is needed. Is amnesty the answer? Perhaps qualified amnesty. Blanket amnesty to any 'ol illegal immigrant? Nope. I don't want criminals given amnesty -- if you have a felony from your home country? Get the hell out. If your work history is full of large gaps? Gone. You've failed to pay income tax the entire time you've been here? Pay it back with interest and penalties... then we can talk.

As for Spain... their wealth has very little to do with immigrants (I've actually been to Spain in the last few years). Their new wealth has EVERYTHING to do with EU subsidies. The main EU countries spend millions of dollars *every day* bolstering Spain's and Portugal's economies.

Now.. why do most people associate Mexicans with illegal immigration... is it because they're racists? Perhaps some are. The large majority? ehh... I can't prove it, but I really doubt it. Could the reason be... maybe... that the VAST MAJORITY OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE FROM MEXICO????? According to the Pew Hispanic Center, 81 percent of illegals are from Mexico... so if we were to pick on one country who contributes to this "problem," perhaps Mexico ought to be the first to draw our ire?? naahh.... that's just too darn logical. Definitely racists..

[bombermwc]

I'm with midtowner here. Either immigrate legally or get the hell out. Crossing the border illegal to me means that you forfeit any and all rights to any services we provide. Schools/health/police/fire/etc. Why should i continue to pay taxes that help people that don't contribute to the pool?

I have aboslutely no problem whatsoever with immigrants. If I did, I would be stupid because look around the room you are in right now, chances are an immigrant is in there too. What I have a problem with is illegals. You want to come here, fine great more power to you we'd love to have you, but do it effing legally!!!!!

[okcitian]

Immigrate LEGALLY. It ain't impossible. It's not cheap -- but not impossible.

The U.S. has its own right to allow people to come via visa on a country by country basis, there's no visas needed for those from developed countries yet for a friend that I have in Mexico, she wanted to visit Miami for a week but was denied since "she makes too much money"

Yes, immigrant labor is needed. Is amnesty the answer? Perhaps qualified amnesty.

I agree with you here. We need skilled labor. I remember part of a proposal for amnesty was given a point system by the amount of skills an immigrant has to live in the U.S.

As for Spain... their wealth has very little to do with immigrants (I've actually been to Spain in the last few years). Their new wealth has EVERYTHING to do with EU subsidies.

I would say it would mainly have to be EU subsidies yet Spain will start to see decreases in thier workforce for Spanish citizens, which is why Spain is giving thosands of Euros if a Spanish couple have a kid. Immigration has been needed in Spain for the past 5 years and is the second most immigrant country in the world next the U.S.

One note to add, If I could find the article i'll post it, but immigration (legal or illegal) has been slowing down from Mexico (although its still significant) in part since the economy is doing better. Remember there are regional disparities in the country so lets say, in Mexico City the per capita is around $21,000 (not nominal) yet other stayes like Guerrero is around $5,000 (not nominal either). Most Mexican immigrants are from the poorest and most rural parts of the country, yet there are those who are the urban poor and middle class as well.

[soonerguru]

It's the corporations, and it's happened in this country since forever. This is not a new development.

It's just a good distraction to keep the real problems we face as a country, which are much worse, out of the news.

Plus, it appeals to people's need to have an enemy to be mad at, often somewhat of a different race or ethnicity.

Meanwhile, the people who run our economy and every Chamber of Commerce from coast to coast exploit the cheap labor.

Notice how no one goes after them?

Does anyone blame some poor schlump for wanting to take any job he can to better his life? Of course not.

ANY American, if roles were reversed, would do the same. The most important think to do is take care of your family, and if I ran out of options in this country and could improve life for my family illegally elsewhere, I would do it immediately.

[soonerguru]

Midtowner,

With the same admission, namely that I cannot quote the source, I've read that most illegals do not receive welfare, they live in a cash world, and are afraid of deportation, therefore they do not go after state support.

Moreover, none of these folks will ever get a penny of money they contribute to our system for social security.

They are actually paying into the state more than they are receiving.

Now, when it comes to getting car insurance? Uggh........Now that hacks me off.

Also, they show up at hospitals without insurance, which does affect us.

However, they work their tails off for next to nothing for the most part -- lacking work ethic is never a complaint about them -- and keep our big corporations nice and profitable.

[Midtowner]

Lots of generalities there sooner. I doubt there are any statistics as to which and how many receive welfare money. I'm sure the government would be embarassed to have to tell us that statistic.

Assuming the number of illegals receiving welfare is about the same as it is for the rest of America, you're still talking about well over a million people at the welfare trough who ought not be receiving a dime. We're talking about millions of their kids in our school systems.

And yes, there are the hospitals, the car wrecks, the general lack of regard for the law.

While amnesty is not the answer, I do like the concept of a guest worker program. It could work assuming the government really step up enforcement, institute a national ID program, require ALL employment and private contracting situations have national ID numbers verified, vigorously prosecute, fine and shut down employers who disregard those rules.

I do think there's a middle ground, but it sure as heck does not start at rewarding lawless behavior.

[bombermwc]

And what about schools? The children that come across go to our schools, yet don't pay the taxes they help fund those schools. You could theoretically have an elementary school in a high immigration area that is fully staffed, but yet receives no money from it's residents. They aren't paying income tax because they don't have a SSN, so it's not going into the pot...ie a cash paycheck. Property tax...maybe, but more likely a renter. So image then how we all have to pick up the slack there for school systems that are already at the bottom of the barrel in funding. Not to mention that many of the parents don't speak English, so the teachers have to rely on the kids to serve as interpreters. Try having a discussion with a parent on why their child is in trouble when the child controls what you are saying!!!!

[Midtowner]

It's not that renters = no property taxes (the landlord pays that). It's that generally, illegals live in very high-density settings (lots of folks under one roof) and in cheap housing, which means low property values. Talk about a perfect storm to drain needed money out of our school system.

[Major]

The main issue for me is the attacks being thrown into the faces of Oklahomans from an outside national Christian group that we are racist and our law is an act of hate. There are attacking you. Isn't this unacceptable and borders on hate itself? Have you seen the billboards they put up in Tulsa? One says "Is it OK for Oklahoma to have a law that promotes hate?" This is all part of a well orchestrated plan to shift the blame of our law onto the backs of Oklahomans by claiming its racist. Our law, HB 1804, is merely seeking some kind of accountability from the tens of thousands illegal foreign nationals who have invaded our state.

The main attacker is the National Coaltion of Latino Clergy whose president is well connected to the White House. If you find this offensive I urged you to call the White House at 202 456-1111 and complain. You will actually get a live person.

In the end, the upcoming lawsuit will answer a simple question. Does Oklahoma have the right to protect its own borders from the invasion of illegal foreign nationals?

No doubt you heard about the large number of illegals picked up in OKC last weekend. They were not all from Meixco. Quite the contrary. We have a problem, folks.

If illegal foreign nationals end up having more rights than legal citizens, then our country as we know it is over. What is the point of being a citizen?

Where are all the young people who are willing to take a stand for Oklahoma and its sovereignty? Where's the drive? Where's the passion?

[soonerguru]

The children that come across go to our schools, yet don't pay the taxes they help fund those schools.

Schools are paid for with property tax. Renters get property tax passed along to them by property owners when they pay their rent. If they're homeowners, then they're directly paying property taxes.

[dalelakin]

Gloom and doom...

As I said before, I don't expect these laws to work because they're preempted by federal law.

Don't Sanctuary Cities do the same?

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

The main issue for me is the attacks being thrown into the faces of Oklahomans from an outside national Christian group that we are racist and our law is an act of hate. There are attacking you. Isn't this unacceptable and borders on hate itself? Have you seen the billboards they put up in Tulsa? One says "Is it OK for Oklahoma to have a law that promotes hate?" This is all part of a well orchestrated plan to shift the blame of our law onto the backs of Oklahomans by claiming its racist. Our law, HB 1804, is merely seeking some kind of accountability from the tens of thousands illegal foreign nationals who have invaded our state.

The main attacker is the National Coaltion of Latino Clergy whose president is well connected to the White House. If you find this offensive I urged you to call the White House at 202 456-1111 and complain. You will actually get a live person.

In the end, the upcoming lawsuit will answer a simple question. Does Oklahoma have the right to protect its own borders from the invasion of illegal foreign nationals?

No doubt you heard about the large number of illegals picked up in OKC last weekend. They were not all from Meixco. Quite the contrary. We have a problem, folks.

If illegal foreign nationals end up having more rights than legal citizens, then our country as we know it is over. What is the point of being a citizen?

Where are all the young people who are willing to take a stand for Oklahoma and its sovereignty? Where's the drive? Where's the passion?

Well...If others are outside looking in, and saying "racist", maybe it's time to look at it again with fresh and pragmatic eyes before screaming and crying "ZOMG!!!000!!!!!111ONeBBQ INVASION!"

There's no invasion. It's people looking for a better life. If they could come here legally, I'm sure they would. They'd make more money that way, and not have to hide from everybody.

I'm 10x more worried about 100 other things.

Oklahoma is sovereign? WOW...And here I was thinking that we were part of the U.S.A.

Oh, and I think that the young people are a bit more tolerant of people that weren't born here and don't blame the Mexicans for their problems.

[Midtowner]

Don't Sanctuary Cities do the same?

Nope. Municipal law is always preempted by state law. If the state law is made so as to govern that entire area of the law, the muni code has no value.

-- now.. whether or not the police in that city have a policy of enforcing the state's law is another thing entirely. The state could always use its own law enforcement organizations to enforce that law, but it can't really compel the city to do anything which is really within the city's discretion.

The issue here is not going to be whether or not Oklahoma can enforce its own borders, etc. Again, I haven't read a word on the case, but I imagine the best claim against the state law is that it's preempted by federal law.

-- and if that's so, the state law is invalid.

[Major]

I completely disagree with the poster who said there are 100 other things more important to worry about. Could you name just 10 for me? that threaten our country's economic or our safety on par with an illegal invasion?

The invasion of tens of millions illegal foreign nationals who have entered our country is a serious problem. It is talked about on the evening news nearly every night. Where have you been?

This issues, this invasion, will destroy our country if left unchecked. There is amply evidence that many of millions of Latinos who have been coming here do not want to assimilate. Its part of a national movement call Aztlan that has been growing since the 60s. Again where have you been? Haven't you noticed their in-your-face attitude? What about their belief that they have a right to be here just a much as a legal citizen does? What point is it to be a citizen???

You are worrying me a little bit here.

[okcitian]

This issues, this invasion, will destroy our country if left unchecked. There is amply evidence that many of millions of Latinos who have been coming here do not want to assimilate. Its part of a national movement call Aztlan that has been growing since the 60s. Again where have you been? Haven't you noticed their in-your-face attitude? What about their belief that they have a right to be here just a much as a legal citizen does? What point is it to be a citizen???

Have you ever traveled outside of the country at all? Seriously, I have friends in Mexico who are far more sophisticated than thier American counterparts and they are also americanized. Mexico is becoming vastly Americanized just as it has spread to Canadian Cities and European cities in the past. Heck i've traveled to Europe and seen how the world is shrinking. Yet most illegals or Mexican immigrants for that matter are less Americanized yet they mostly assimilate into our society, It DOES take time from the language barrier to disappear since most of them didn't have a sufficient education in Spanish grammar to learn another lanugage.

My mom is from Mexico and moved here already Americanized, learned English in 6 months and didn't have to move here for a better life since she already made it in Mexico. She definately is Americanized and has respect for this country. She already listened to mostly American Music before she moved here. And understood American humor after many years of living here.

OK AZATLAN, are you seriously kidding me, I doubt that would ever happen. I actually realistically see Mexico moving up the social ladder as a country but not Azatlan. You don't see terroists from Mexico coming in our country and invading with mass terror devices.

I do believe that something has to be done for easier route yet safe route to legality or citizenship.

[Major]

Yes, I have traveled quite a bit. I use to live in Brazil for a number of years, been to Europe and Mexico. What was your point?

Found this most interesting:

ACTION ALERT: Charges of Ethnic Cleansing in Tulsa by Latino Leader

In an October 4th Presidential Bulletin, Rev. Miguel Rivera, President of the National Coalition of Latino Clergy and member of President Bush's White House Immigration Reform Coalition, said that within hours a lawsuit to defeat Oklahoma's anti-illegal foreign national law will be filed. He also said the Mexican American Legal Defense Fund will jointly contribute their legal support. In a translated version of the bulletin, Rivera makes the deeply disturbing claim that ethnic cleansing is taking place in Tulsa.

zTruth : ACTION ALERT: Charges of Ethnic Cleansing in Tulsa by Latino Leader

[PennyQuilts]

Just want to point out that the illegal immigration problem is not just about Oklahomans being racist and that this is not just about "Mexicans." In Northern Virginia, the county I live in is utterly swamped with illegal aliens, primarily from Central America. The court system, social services and schools are in real trouble and the County is trying to work on ways to arrest illegals and turn them over to ICE. Percentage wise, there really aren't that many Mexicans in this area compared to the other countries of origin. We mainly get folks from El Salvador and Guatemala. I used to be able to get in and out of court in an hour (I'm a child advocate). Now, I have to frequently set aside the better part of a day because they don't have enough translators. That hits me directly in the paycheck and it means that my other clients, primarily abused children, don't get the attention they deserve because I am sitting around court twittling my thumbs waiting for a case to be called instead of visiting them at school or at home, or arranging to get services they might need. I know a lot of defense counsel who no longer take court appointed work because they can't afford to spend three hours waiting on an interpreter to speak to their clients in jail followed by numerous court appearances (for a $120.00 flat fee). The illegals frequently don't have drivers licenses and forget about insurance. If you get hit by one, they take off. This is not urban legend - I work with the courts and cops. The LEGAL immigrants, hispanic or otherwise, aren't the ones anyone around here is worried about. They tend to work hard, respect the law and want to make a good life for themselves. And they also carry car insurance, as a rule. They are welcomed and I always get a warm fuzzy when my clients' parents proudly tell me they have become a citizen. When I hear someone speaking English with a heavy spanish accent, my first thought is GOOD FOR YOU! You are doing your best to learn the language and I will do my best to be patient to help you learn. Trying to say that anyone who is opposed to illegals is a racist is insulting and inaccurate. I resent reading comments that claim people like me, without knowing me, are racist because we are opposed to illegal immigration, don't want to encourage it, and believe the law should be enforced to stop it.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

I don't mind the Mexicans so much...You know who really burns my ass?

The freakin' DUTCH.

GOD, I just want them all to stay in their own country and never show their faces here ever again.

*shudders*

I HATE THEM.

[dismayed]

Their wooden shoes and accordion music will be the destruction of America.

[PUGalicious]

I don't mind the Mexicans so much...You know who really burns my ass?

The freakin' DUTCH.

GOD, I just want them all to stay in their own country and never show their faces here ever again.

*shudders*

I HATE THEM.

I agree... There are two things I despise: intolerant people and the Dutch!