Covid-19 in OKC (coronavirus)

[TheTravellers]

Can you link to this please?

Sorry, I can't, I don't have a FB account, and couldn't find a way to link to the individual post. Just search for Oklahoma Source and scroll down a few days.

[TheTravellers]

Also all the countries who have governments, economies, and health care systems faring better than the U.S. during this pandemic.

Yeah, pretty much this and what PoliSciGuy said. There are countries who paid 80% of a worker's salary during the lockdowns/quarantines, just as one example. It's not about "freedom", it's about a nation taking care of one's citizens. Isn't that really one of the huge responsibilities (if not the only one) of government?

[Plutonic Panda]

I’d rather have freedom. Give me liberty or death. There are plenty of countries out there that are more than happy to restrict your freedoms. It just must be a coincidence the one that believes in freedoms and personal liberties just so happens to be the most sought after, powerful nation in history.

[GoGators]

Okay well you should go live in those authoritarian government regimes and enjoy. I’m good and I’ll stick here in America and not just constantly tell myself “it’s only one more law”

I think you misinterpreted the meaning of flaunting In the post you quoted.

[dankrutka]

Okay well you should go live in those authoritarian government regimes and enjoy. I’m good and I’ll stick here in America and not just constantly tell myself “it’s only one more law”

I hope you're doing alright, PluPan. I'm not going to debate you because you're just yelling past me and other posters. You usually provide evidence and rationales for your arguments even if others disagree. But these "mASkS aRe aUTHoriTARIan" takes are what I try to avoid online.

Beyond that, it's just disrespectful you keep implying I want to live in an authoritarian state. I have dedicated my entire career to work as an educator to strengthen democracy. For 4 of my 6 years teaching high school in OKC I taught AP U.S. government because I was dedicated to helping students grow as democratic citizens, I wrote a dissertation on democratic citizenship, I serve on the board of the largest social studies organization in the U.S., I host a podcast dedicated to the topic, I donate to organizations dedicated to preserving democracy, I donate my time and money to political campaigns, I'm a county voter registrar and I work to help young people get registered, and I serve in my local government as chair of major citizen committee. I know the U.S. Constitution, U.S. history, democracy, and citizenship inside and out, but I still try to learn more everyday. I've dedicated my life to democracy. Aside from not wearing a mask, what have you done for our democracy?

I honestly am happy to discuss with you why you think mask mandates are government overreach, but you're not making good faith arguments or providing evidence. We've disagreed in the past, but at least I knew your reasons. In fact, making informed arguments is at the heart of democracy.

[soonerguru]

The 2.0% positive is based on number of positives reported today (299) divided by the difference between completed tests reported yesterday (312,454) and completed tests reported today (327,683), which is 15,229. That yields a final result of 299/15,229 which is actually .019 (1.9%). All data is taken from the daily summary OSDH mails out.

Hmm, I am vexed here. Here is a post from the head of OU epidemiology. His numbers differ from yours considerably.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...00000551045034

[Plutonic Panda]

I hope you're doing alright, PluPan. I'm not going to debate you because you're just yelling past me and other posters. You usually provide evidence and rationales for your arguments even if others disagree. But these "mASkS aRe aUTHoriTARIan" takes are what I try to avoid online.

Beyond that, it's just disrespectful you keep implying I want to live in an authoritarian state. I have dedicated my entire career to work as an educator to strengthen democracy. For 4 of my 6 years teaching high school in OKC I taught AP U.S. government because I was dedicated to helping students grow as democratic citizens, I wrote a dissertation on democratic citizenship, I serve on the board of the largest social studies organization in the U.S., I host a podcast dedicated to the topic, I donate to organizations dedicated to preserving democracy, I donate my time and money to political campaigns, I'm a county voter registrar and I work to help young people get registered, and I serve in my local government as chair of major citizen committee. I know the U.S. Constitution, U.S. history, democracy, and citizenship inside and out, but I still try to learn more everyday. I've dedicated my life to democracy. Aside from not wearing a mask, what have you done for our democracy?

I honestly am happy to discuss with you why you think mask mandates are government overreach, but you're not making good faith arguments or providing evidence. We've disagreed in the past, but at least I knew your reasons. In fact, making informed arguments is at the heart of democracy.

I am sorry you find my responses disrespectful as I am not trying to be that way.

My issue is with your words here:

“ There are thousands of regulations and laws we all follow every day. This really isn’t different.”

That is what prompted me to respond. Not whether or not masks are indeed effective. I’m skeptical about how effective they are but for sake of being mindful of others and putting their minds at ease, I keep one with me and wear it more often than not depending on the circumstances.

But when I hear someone advocate for a government regulation and use the argument of “oh you already have many other laws and regulations” as a supporting argument, that does not sit right with me at all.

[soonerguru]

I am sorry you find my responses disrespectful as I am not trying to be that way.

My issue is with your words here:

“ There are thousands of regulations and laws we all follow every day. This really isn’t different.”

That is what prompted me to respond. Not whether or not masks are indeed effective. I’m skeptical about how effective they are but for sake of being mindful of others and putting their minds at ease, I keep one with me and wear it more often than not depending on the circumstances.

But when I hear someone advocate for a government regulation and use the argument of “oh you already have many other laws and regulations” as a supporting argument, that does not sit right with me at all.

Why is this your hill to die on? I don’t particularly care to wear pants but I wear them in public, as per “government regulation.”

[Plutonic Panda]

Why is this your hill to die on? I don’t particularly care to wear pants but I wear them in public, as per “government regulation.”

Well, are you ready to here another hill I would die on? I support the option to be nude in public. I don’t support public nudity laws and I think they should be abolished. I’m being serious.

However, with that said, I understand your point. Again, if a business mandates masks that is absolutely fine. I will respect that.

If a business doesn’t, and an employee resigns due to public health concerns during a pandemic, he/she/they should be entitled to benefits and I even support temporary UBI at this point.

Why is that a problem? More and more businesses are implementing mandatory masks. If you don’t like the ones that don’t then don’t shop there. My hill to die on is the principle of giving people options. Yours is implementing more and more laws and restrictions.

[TheTravellers]

Well, are you ready to here another hill I would die on? I support the option to be nude in public. I don’t support public nudity laws and I think they should be abolished. I’m being serious.

However, with that said, I understand your point. Again, if a business mandates masks that is absolutely fine. I will respect that.

If a business doesn’t, and an employee resigns due to public health concerns during a pandemic, he/she/they should be entitled to benefits and I even support temporary UBI at this point.

Why is that a problem? More and more businesses are implementing mandatory masks. If you don’t like the ones that don’t then don’t shop there. My hill to die on is the principle of giving people options. Yours is implementing more and more laws and restrictions.

Options that endanger public health shouldn't really be in play during a pandemic, that's been upheld time and time again.

[Plutonic Panda]

Options that endanger public health shouldn't really be in play during a pandemic, that's been upheld time and time again.

Says the same crowd that had no problem with the millions and millions of people crowding on the streets during the last protests.

[soonerguru]

Well, are you ready to here another hill I would die on? I support the option to be nude in public. I don’t support public nudity laws and I think they should be abolished. I’m being serious.

However, with that said, I understand your point. Again, if a business mandates masks that is absolutely fine. I will respect that.

If a business doesn’t, and an employee resigns due to public health concerns during a pandemic, he/she/they should be entitled to benefits and I even support temporary UBI at this point.

Why is that a problem? More and more businesses are implementing mandatory masks. If you don’t like the ones that don’t then don’t shop there. My hill to die on is the principle of giving people options. Yours is implementing more and more laws and restrictions.

You seem like a nice guy and someone I would enjoy getting a beer with, but it is hard to understand why you don’t simply trust the advice of people who are experts. I don’t get it. If you need more evidence, just look at the results of countries with high mask usage and look at the US. The difference is staggering. And, regarding your opposition to government mandated mask usage, we have tried it your way, and it has failed. People have shown with their actions that they will not be responsible, they will not wear masks and distance, and we are now paying the price of this misguided libertarian experiment.

Also, it is fair to say that public nudity does not potentially kill people.

[chuck5815]

You seem like a nice guy and someone I would enjoy getting a beer with, but it is hard to understand why you don’t simply trust the advice of people who are experts. I don’t get it. If you need more evidence, just look at the results of countries with high mask usage and look at the US. The difference is staggering. And, regarding your opposition to government mandated mask usage, we have tried it your way, and it has failed. People have shown with their actions that they will not be responsible, they will not wear masks and distance, and we are now paying the price of this misguided libertarian experiment.

Also, it is fair to say that public nudity does not potentially kill people.

Not true. We would have exponentially more car wrecks if public nudity was Cool-De-La.

[jedicurt]

I'm not being dramatic at all. The post says it's all about $ and says sheer massive capitalism without safety nets is not a way to run a country. I am seriously curious what he would do about it while maintaining our freedoms? Respectfully, It's not a hard question to understand.

and it was answered easily... mandatory mask wearing.

[jedicurt]

Says the same crowd that had no problem with the millions and millions of people crowding on the streets during the last protests.

most of the time distanced and most of them wearing masks...

[jedicurt]

If a business doesn’t, and an employee resigns due to public health concerns during a pandemic, he/she/they should be entitled to benefits and I even support temporary UBI at this point.

but wouldn't this have to be done by a government regulation? shouldn't a businesses owner have the freedom to make his own choices, since you don't want regulations? I'm curious why this government mandate for this business owner is acceptable but one stipulating a mask being warn in public isn't? honestly just curious where you draw the line as acceptable?

[dankrutka]

My issue is with your words here:

“ There are thousands of regulations and laws we all follow every day. This really isn’t different.”

That is what prompted me to respond. Not whether or not masks are indeed effective. I’m skeptical about how effective they are but for sake of being mindful of others and putting their minds at ease, I keep one with me and wear it more often than not depending on the circumstances.

But when I hear someone advocate for a government regulation and use the argument of “oh you already have many other laws and regulations” as a supporting argument, that does not sit right with me at all.

Yes, I would agree that democratic governments should avoid unnecessary or unjust laws. So, our real point of disagreement here is whether mask wearing is a good law, which is more productive.

I am not sure how you can still be skeptical of the effects of masks. There is a widespread consensus among researchers showing that masks dramatically lower the spread of the virus. There is no substantive research supporting the only counterpoints that I've heard (e.g., people fiddle with their mask too much). Some countries have been able to keep COVID cases down with their primary action as mask wearing. Of course, there's a lot of evidence that testing and contract tracing work too.

Anyway, so I support mask wearing mandates, enforced reasonably (no one wants to seriously criminalize non-mask wearers), as a temporary matter of public health. I therefore see the law as democratic because it is in the public's health interest, it is temporary, and there is no evidence of long-lasting concerns as there's widespread consensus to get rid of the mandate after the health crisis. Lastly, while mandating citizens to wear a specific clothing —of course, governments mandate citizens wear clothes already—is something we should be wary about generally, the circumstances mitigate any concerns I would have. Any concern about liberty seems largely theoretical as I don't think a mask wearing mandate threatens individual freedoms. In fact, Black Americans and other People of Color might actually have a liberty concern as wearing a mask can result in White Americans in particular labeling them a threat and calling police or claiming self-defense against them. There's a discussion worth having about how to manage these two competing threats to their health.

That's why I see mask mandates as a sign of a vibrant democracy that cares about it's public... unlike an authoritarian regime which would be more likely to undermine scientific expertise and not care about the health/death of citizens.

[jerrywall]

but wouldn't this have to be done by a government regulation? shouldn't a businesses owner have the freedom to make his own choices, since you don't want regulations? I'm curious why this government mandate for this business owner is acceptable but one stipulating a mask being warn in public isn't? honestly just curious where you draw the line as acceptable?

Ooh, ooh, I can play here.....

Now, just understand I'm in support of mask requirements, but just playing devils advocate..

This business owner is allowed the freedom to make his own choice here. The employee would also be exercising their freedom, which is to resign due to the health concerns. As to eligibility for unemployment, while employers do pay into unemployment insurance, ultimately unemployment is a relationship between a worker and the government. If the government chooses to extend more generous terms for eligibility, this is between the individual and the government as parties to the relationship. It doesn't affect the rights or freedoms of the business at all. Now it does incentivize, from a financial standpoint, the business making conditions such that employees wouldn't leave over health concerns. But this is still freedom, which doesn't imply lack of consequences or benefits for actions. But at this point the business could make the decision that made the most sense for them. For some, it might be taking the hit on their unemployment insurance premiums.

Regardless, this isn't the case, so it's neither here nor there. Right now, folks are being forced to work at employers who are not requiring masks for customers, and considering folks are having to camp out overnight to try to get unemployment, it's not like folks are having a choice when it comes to endangering themselves. No one should ever have to make a choice between keeping themselves and their families safe, and paying rent. That's lack of freedom, not a sign of it.

[jedicurt]

O
Regardless, this isn't the case, so it's neither here nor there. Right now, folks are being forced to work at employers who are not requiring masks for customers, and considering folks are having to camp out overnight to try to get unemployment, it's not like folks are having a choice when it comes to endangering themselves. No one should ever have to make a choice between keeping themselves and their families safe, and paying rent. That's lack of freedom, not a sign of it.

you and i are on the exact same page here... i just don't see how wearing a mask is such a major restriction of freedoms. it's a simple, scientifically proven, TEMPORARY way to help both the economy and public health. rather than the other option which is to support the economy at the expense of the public health.

[soonerguru]

Okay well you should go live in those authoritarian government regimes and enjoy. I’m good and I’ll stick here in America and not just constantly tell myself “it’s only one more law”

Yes, things are going so well in America right now! USA!!! We cannot deign to allow a city ordinance requiring a piece of cloth be worn when we hit the grocery store for ten minutes.

[FighttheGoodFight]

228 today. Looks like tomorrow there will be a COVID19 update from the governor at 2pm.

[SoonerDave]

Hmm, I am vexed here. Here is a post from the head of OU epidemiology. His numbers differ from yours considerably.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...00000551045034

I stand by what OSDH reports.

[Pete]

Yes, 'only' 228 new cases today, but of course Monday's are always low when compared to the rest of the week. Last Monday was 218 and the one before that was 186. Those were ahead of record weeks.

49 new hospitalizations since Saturday; they don't report on Sunday.

0 additional deaths.

[SoonerDave]

Hmm, I am vexed here. Here is a post from the head of OU epidemiology. His numbers differ from yours considerably.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...00000551045034

The numbers I cite are day-to-day numbers from the last day total tests were reported. Bratzler is talking about broad trends.

[soonerguru]

The numbers I cite are day-to-day numbers from the last day total tests were reported. Bratzler is talking about broad trends.

OK, not disputing your numbers at all, but I thought we were supposed to analyze trends, such as 7-day averages or 14-day averages to smooth out spikes and falls to get more realistic data. That is what the governor told us, that is what the mayor told us, and, when it was functioning, that is what the White House told us to look at.

We may have a couple of days of low test percentages here and there but would it not make more sense to analyze the broad trends?