Four Minneapolis officers fired after arrest of man who later died . . .

[jerrywall]

Because peaceful protests and strongly worded letters have been so effective up until now? No , I don't support rioting and certainly the loss of life is tragic. But I understand the anger and where it's coming from. Even if I can't fully understand the experience.

…I think America must see that riots do not develop out of thin air. Certain conditions continue to exist in our society which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation’s summers of riots are caused by our nation’s winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention. - Martin Luther King Jr

[Jersey Boss]

The product of cops not disciplined for transgressions is loss of life and property. Totally avoidable.

Officer at center of George Floyd's death had history of prior complaints
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...story-n1215691

[Plutonic Panda]

https://twitter.com/lizhabib/status/...195862018?s=21

[ditm4567]

https://twitter.com/lizhabib/status/...195862018?s=21

Accomplishing a lot I see

[HangryHippo]

https://twitter.com/lizhabib/status/...195862018?s=21

I get the anger, but if that cop was going to pull over and try to help that guy on the ground, why the hell keep beating the **** out of his car while he tries to stop?

[Colbafone]

The problem isn't the rioting. The problem isn't in how anyone is reacting. The problem is WHY they are reacting this way. What led them to that.


We need a total restructuring of how we hire and train our police force in the US. This stuff just keeps happening and happening. Don't blame the rioters, blame those who allowed this to happen. Freakin fix it. It's not hard. Stop shooting/killing unarmed people, and maybe more prolifically, stop doing it to black men and women.

[Plutonic Panda]

I get the anger, but if that cop was going to pull over and try to help that guy on the ground, why the hell keep beating the **** out of his car while he tries to stop?

I saw that as well. This isn’t just anger, it’s rage. I get it but this violence and rioting is solving absolutely nothing. It is making matters worse and will further divide people. Hopefully this dies down but it could go the other way and spread.

[Plutonic Panda]

It’s also absurdly moronic to stand and try to block a freeway. You are just asking to be run over and if you catch the wrong person on the wrong day it could be bad. But maybe that’s what these protestors wanted so they have an excuse to be crazier. Who knows.

[Plutonic Panda]

https://twitter.com/mrandyngo/status...014080512?s=21

[jerrywall]

Blocking highways is dangerous, but the thinking behind it is the same as what Dr. King was thinking in many of his protests and march. They SHOULD be disruptive and inconvenient. Segregation, equal rights, or even something so extreme like simply wanting to be able to not be murdered in broad daylight in front of witnesses for the crime of being black is not a black community problem. It's an everyone problem. Shutting down the roads, blocking traffic, or occupying a drug store lunch counter are all about raising awareness and trying to force through change. Protests are often about redistributing the pain. Let everyone feel the effects of whatever you're protesting. Many of us can't related and will never be subject to the experiences that the black communities go through with police. But not being able to get to work or get into Starbucks to get our coffee or whatever other inconvenience the protests bring us at least enable us to feel a tiny bit of the pain.

One problem with the focus many folks have on the riots, the burning, the damage, is it's doing several flawed things at once.

1). It's assuming that those stealing or hurting folks or whatever represent the totality or the majority of protesters. It typically doesn't.
2). It completely disregards the absolutely justified anger folks in these communities are feeling (or at least shows a lack of empathy).
3). Images and clips tend to be selectively shown, highlighting some of the worst behavior without the context of the police behavior moments before, or without showing all the peaceful demonstrators and protestors. This has been a recurring tactic by some to paint protestors as thugs and criminals. It's not that far off the logic behind labelling the Tulsa Race Massacre a Riot.

[Plutonic Panda]

Jerry, I am not sure what your point is. People are now dying because of these “protests.” Businesses that have been shut down due to the virus and on their last leg have been destroyed. A large affordable housing development was just burned down. I’d be more interested in what you have to say if this was happening here or around your property. Business owners that are black have been posting signs stating “this is a black owned business” at an attempt of preventing looting and destruction.

I don’t think anyone is discounting the anger that is felt. This is more to do with the destruction that is happening. It’s counterproductive and won’t solve anything.

[Thomas Vu]

I maybe missing something in all of this, how does spreading the harm to people/businesses that weren't involved further the cause?

[Jersey Boss]

Blocking highways is dangerous, but the thinking behind it is the same as what Dr. King was thinking in many of his protests and march. They SHOULD be disruptive and inconvenient. Segregation, equal rights, or even something so extreme like simply wanting to be able to not be murdered in broad daylight in front of witnesses for the crime of being black is not a black community problem. It's an everyone problem. Shutting down the roads, blocking traffic, or occupying a drug store lunch counter are all about raising awareness and trying to force through change. Protests are often about redistributing the pain. Let everyone feel the effects of whatever you're protesting. Many of us can't related and will never be subject to the experiences that the black communities go through with police. But not being able to get to work or get into Starbucks to get our coffee or whatever other inconvenience the protests bring us at least enable us to feel a tiny bit of the pain.

One problem with the focus many folks have on the riots, the burning, the damage, is it's doing several flawed things at once.

1). It's assuming that those stealing or hurting folks or whatever represent the totality or the majority of protesters. It typically doesn't.
2). It completely disregards the absolutely justified anger folks in these communities are feeling (or at least shows a lack of empathy).
3). Images and clips tend to be selectively shown, highlighting some of the worst behavior without the context of the police behavior moments before, or without showing all the peaceful demonstrators and protestors. This has been a recurring tactic by some to paint protestors as thugs and criminals. It's not that far off the logic behind labelling the Tulsa Race Massacre a Riot.

Very insightful and well thought post. Unfortunately it sometimes takes violent action to effect change that is just paid lip service till then.
Until the doctrine of qualified immunity is repealed, cops acting with immunity against civilians will continue with these predictable results.

[jerrywall]

Jerry I am unsure what you point is. People are now dying because of these “protests.” Businesses that have been shut down due to the virus and on their last leg have been destroyed. I’d be more interested in what you have to say if this was happening here or around your property.

I don’t think anyone is discounting the anger that is felt. This is more to do with the destruction that is happening. It’s counterproductive and won’t solve anything.

I'd like to think I'd say I don't have a single piece of property or a business that I would trade for someone's life (obviously I imagine in the moment I'd be a lot more upset). As for any deaths, they're also tragic, although I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that a lot more folks are dying on a regular basis at the hands of the police (and by extension, the government). I'm in my mid 40s and I've been seeing these incidents my whole life, and they don't seem to be getting less common, and the response to them doesn't seem to be improving. At some point I can't really blame people for giving up on "hopes and prayers". None of that makes the violence or the property damage OK, although I can certainly understand where the anger is coming from. I'm just not interested in focusing on it or treating it like its representative of the majority of the protestors and the movement. It's being used by many as a stick to dismiss the protesters as thugs and criminals which serves a narrative.

BTW - To clarify my previous post - My first paragraph was a separate thought, in response to your freeway comment. The rest more a general thought on folks focusing on the riots and not on the murder by the police and the continued inaction and acceptance in the light of these incidents.

[jerrywall]

Very insightful and well thought post. Unfortunately it sometimes takes violent action to effect change that is just paid lip service till then.
Until the doctrine of qualified immunity is repealed, cops acting with immunity against civilians will continue with these predictable results.

There's the old story of the dog sitting on the porch whining. A kid asks the old man why the dog is upset. "He's sitting on a nail" the old man says. "Why doesn't he move" asks the boy. "Because it doesn't hurt enough yet" replies the old man. Sometimes society has to hurt enough before it'll move off of the nail.

[Plutonic Panda]

Jerry, I’m not saying what you said was wrong, to clarify. I don’t value property or possessions over life either. We have to have some sort of rule in society or it becomes complete chaos. People should absolutely have the right to defend their property and possessions with lethal force however.

Yes I agree the police are a bit out of control. The saying that the few “protesters” causing violence and chaos don’t represent the majority also goes for not all cops are bad. Many great police officers out there and this one pig doesn’t speak for the others.

From the videos I’ve seen, the majority of people in the video are engaged in violence or destruction. To the ones that aren’t, why even stay there and continue to participate in that? I’ve been in several protest in my life where I was a part of it and when it started to get ugly I left.

The main take away here is that these people are driven by emotion. I don’t want to call them stupid but what they are doing is not smart but any measure. It will only cause animosity and create more enemies, detract from the real issue which doesn’t have to be about race but evilness in this world, and hurts others which’s makes you or anyone else participating in this no better than the cop that brutally murdered George.

To anyone who is insistent on making this about race, I will say I haven’t seen a single person regardless of race justify the cops actions in any way. I’m sure those people exists but still.

Burn down the police station and city hall. But do your best to make sure no one gets hurt and don’t burn down small businesses. As I said before, I’m not against protestors creating disruption and blocking streets. I’m not condoning it but I’m not going to vocally advocate against it. That’s way different than resorting to violence and burning down the city with blood now on the hands of the protestors. Every single one of these individuals should be found and brought to trial. Clear view AI is a thing that can even identify someone wearing a mask.

[Jersey Boss]

There's the old story of the dog sitting on the porch whining. A kid asks the old man why the dog is upset. "He's sitting on a nail" the old man says. "Why doesn't he move" asks the boy. "Because it doesn't hurt enough yet" replies the old man. Sometimes society has to hurt enough before it'll move off of the nail.

You write some insightful stories at time. Let me say your reason for face masks and getting pissed on is a gem.

[catch22]

I think the protesters would be regarded as patriots if they instead dressed as Native Americans and boarded cargo ships to dump all of the containers into the harbor.

[Martin]

thought this might be relevant to the discussion...
minneapolis incident response from ocpd chief of police wade gourley:

[Teo9969]

I maybe missing something in all of this, how does spreading the harm to people/businesses that weren't involved further the cause?

Because eventually cities will come to realize that negligence toward an inadequately trained and vetted police force is costly.

If cities do not move to improve the situation and if our nation's justice systems do not begin to reign down hard on these types of crimes committed by policemen, then this is only going to get worse. Every Mayor of a large municipality (I don't know...100k+?) should be calling a press conference right now to discuss the steps they are taking to improve the training for their police force to ensure better protection for the black community. As we enter what looks to be a period of long economic unrest, people need to understand more people have nothing to lose and if this spins out of control, it's only going to serve to further damage the economy. (And from what I've seen, the Black community has been hit hardest by Covid and are undoubtedly feeling the biggest strain economically, so, double whammy)

[Dustin]

I maybe missing something in all of this, how does spreading the harm to people/businesses that weren't involved further the cause?

It's tough. I hate that family owned businesses are being burned to the ground, but at some point you just have to say enough is enough. Rioting doesn't happen out of the blue.

Sure, some of them are opportunists looking to loot, but most of it's anger. Anger that nothing ever changes.

[Stew]

[Teo9969]

thought this might be relevant to the discussion...
minneapolis incident response from ocpd chief of police wade gourley:

Well...Here's a Data Set to consider:

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/cities

OKC is obviously doing atrociously in the left graphic on that page. So I wondered to myself, how have we been doing *recently*. So I pulled their data set, and isolated all cities who had >= 10 kills originating with an officer over the 2013-2019 period. There were 115 such cities.

I then summed the 2017-2019 and 2013-2016 kills separately and found the percentage of kills that occurred in the most recent 3 years in relation to the previous 4. Obviously when you account for population growth, a flat rate of kills is not exactly 75% of the previous 4 years, but it's close enough for most cities. The Median was actually 82.35% and the Average 95.38%

OKC ranked 42nd out of 115 where 1st means relatively less kills and 115th means relatively more kills. That's 63rd percentile on a scale that values less kills (I suppose that should be notated as 37th percentile for the "Blue Lives Matter" crowd). Our recent-3-years kills as a percentage off our previous-4-year kill was 58.06% so that does look to be an improvement in our rate, even accounting for population growth.

I'd be interested to know when OKCPD began taking the measures described in this video. If within the last 5 years, I think that's probably a good sign that we're taking some good initial steps to improvement.

Unfortunately, from 2013-2019, among the 100 largest cities we still killed a greater percentage of our population than all cities but St. Louis. So perhaps Chief Gourley might have been better to say "Guys, we're actually really bad at this, and we've looked at the data and determined we need to do better".

[PoliSciGuy]

Well...Here's a Data Set to consider:

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/cities

OKC is obviously doing atrociously in the left graphic on that page. So I wondered to myself, how have we been doing *recently*. So I pulled their data set, and isolated all cities who had >= 10 kills originating with an officer over the 2013-2019 period. There were 115 such cities.

I then summed the 2017-2019 and 2013-2016 kills separately and found the percentage of kills that occurred in the most recent 3 years in relation to the previous 4. Obviously when you account for population growth, a flat rate of kills is not exactly 75% of the previous 4 years, but it's close enough for most cities. The Median was actually 82.35% and the Average 95.38%

OKC ranked 42nd out of 115 where 1st means relatively less kills and 115th means relatively more kills. That's 63rd percentile on a scale that values less kills (I suppose that should be notated as 37th percentile for the "Blue Lives Matter" crowd). Our recent-3-years kills as a percentage off our previous-4-year kill was 58.06% so that does look to be an improvement in our rate, even accounting for population growth.

I'd be interested to know when OKCPD began taking the measures described in this video. If within the last 5 years, I think that's probably a good sign that we're taking some good initial steps to improvement.

Unfortunately, from 2013-2019, among the 100 largest cities we still killed a greater percentage of our population than all cities but St. Louis. So perhaps Chief Gourley might have been better to say "Guys, we're actually really bad at this, and we've looked at the data and determined we need to do better".

This is really good work and important context, thanks

[Teo9969]

Well...Here's a Data Set to consider:

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/cities

OKC is obviously doing atrociously in the left graphic on that page. So I wondered to myself, how have we been doing *recently*. So I pulled their data set, and isolated all cities who had >= 10 kills originating with an officer over the 2013-2019 period. There were 115 such cities.

I then summed the 2017-2019 and 2013-2016 kills separately and found the percentage of kills that occurred in the most recent 3 years in relation to the previous 4. Obviously when you account for population growth, a flat rate of kills is not exactly 75% of the previous 4 years, but it's close enough for most cities. The Median was actually 82.35% and the Average 95.38%

OKC ranked 42nd out of 115 where 1st means relatively less kills and 115th means relatively more kills. That's 63rd percentile on a scale that values less kills (I suppose that should be notated as 37th percentile for the "Blue Lives Matter" crowd). Our recent-3-years kills as a percentage off our previous-4-year kill was 58.06% so that does look to be an improvement in our rate, even accounting for population growth.

I'd be interested to know when OKCPD began taking the measures described in this video. If within the last 5 years, I think that's probably a good sign that we're taking some good initial steps to improvement.

Unfortunately, from 2013-2019, among the 100 largest cities we still killed a greater percentage of our population than all cities but St. Louis. So perhaps Chief Gourley might have been better to say "Guys, we're actually really bad at this, and we've looked at the data and determined we need to do better".

City	Rank	# Deaths 2017-2019	As a percent of deaths from 2013-2016	Total Deaths 2013-2019
Westminster	115	11	550.00%	13
Greenville	114	13	433.33%	16
Colorado Springs	113	13	325.00%	17
Clinton	112	9	300.00%	12
Honolulu	111	8	200.00%	12
Arlington	109	11	183.33%	17
Richmond	109	11	183.33%	17
Laredo	108	9	180.00%	14
Pueblo	107	12	171.43%	19
Mesa	106	15	166.67%	24
Tacoma	105	8	160.00%	13
Springfield	104	14	155.56%	23
Amarillo	100	6	150.00%	10
Auburn	100	6	150.00%	10
Gainesville	100	6	150.00%	10
Portland	100	12	150.00%	20
Bronx	98	10	142.86%	17
Jackson	98	10	142.86%	17
Atlanta	93	14	140.00%	24
Charleston	93	7	140.00%	12
Modesto	93	7	140.00%	12
Redding	93	7	140.00%	12
Shreveport	93	7	140.00%	12
Aurora	92	11	137.50%	19
Detroit	91	12	133.33%	21
Las Cruces	87	9	128.57%	16
Salt Lake City	87	9	128.57%	16
Wichita	87	9	128.57%	16
Wilmington	87	9	128.57%	16
Spokane	86	10	125.00%	18
Anchorage	84	6	120.00%	11
Lakeland	84	6	120.00%	11
St. Louis	83	25	119.05%	46
Lakewood	82	7	116.67%	13
Lancaster	80	8	114.29%	15
Newark	80	8	114.29%	15
Glendale	79	9	112.50%	17
Brooklyn	78	10	111.11%	19
Billings	73	6	100.00%	12
Durham	73	5	100.00%	10
Lexington	73	6	100.00%	12
Louisville	73	14	100.00%	28
Riverside	73	8	100.00%	16
Columbus	72	24	92.31%	50
Las Vegas	71	26	89.66%	55
Albuquerque	70	24	88.89%	51
Phoenix	69	52	88.14%	111
Birmingham	68	7	87.50%	15
Denver	67	20	86.96%	43
Huntsville	66	6	85.71%	13
Charlotte	65	11	84.62%	24
Jacksonville	64	21	84.00%	46
Akron	59	5	83.33%	11
Austin	59	15	83.33%	33
Henderson	59	5	83.33%	11
Longview	59	5	83.33%	11
Midland	59	5	83.33%	11
Memphis	58	14	82.35%	31
Milwaukee	55	8	80.00%	18
Tucson	55	20	80.00%	45
Tulsa	55	16	80.00%	36
Kansas City	54	20	76.92%	46
Dayton	52	6	75.00%	14
Little Rock	52	6	75.00%	14
San Antonio	51	24	72.73%	57
San Jose	49	10	71.43%	24
St. Paul	49	5	71.43%	12
Decatur	46	4	66.67%	10
Hamilton	46	4	66.67%	10
Madison	46	4	66.67%	10
Cleveland	45	8	61.54%	21
Tampa	43	6	60.00%	16
Tempe	43	6	60.00%	16
Oklahoma City	42	18	58.06%	49
Boston	40	4	57.14%	11
Scottsdale	40	4	57.14%	11
Anaheim	38	5	55.56%	14
Knoxville	38	5	55.56%	14
Baton Rouge	36	6	54.55%	17
El Paso	36	6	54.55%	17
Houston	35	35	53.85%	100
Miami	34	15	53.57%	43
Fort Worth	33	11	52.38%	32
Baltimore	32	11	50.00%	33
Los Angeles	31	38	49.35%	115
Dallas	30	17	45.95%	54
Sacramento	27	5	45.45%	16
San Diego	27	10	45.45%	32
Santa Ana	27	5	45.45%	16
Fresno	26	9	45.00%	29
Fayetteville	24	4	44.44%	13
Nashville	24	4	44.44%	13
Bakersfield	23	10	43.48%	33
San Francisco	20	6	42.86%	20
Tallahassee	20	3	42.86%	10
Trenton	20	3	42.86%	10
Reno	19	5	41.67%	17
Chicago	18	23	41.07%	79
New Orleans	16	4	40.00%	14
Philadelphia	16	10	40.00%	35
Anderson	15	3	37.50%	11
Long Beach	13	7	36.84%	26
Seattle	13	7	36.84%	26
Oakland	10	4	36.36%	15
Orlando	10	8	36.36%	30
Washington	10	8	36.36%	30
Stockton	9	5	27.78%	23
San Bernardino	8	3	27.27%	14
Cincinnati	7	3	25.00%	15
Omaha	6	3	21.43%	17
Norfolk	5	2	20.00%	12
Indianapolis	4	3	11.54%	29
New York	3	3	11.11%	30
Columbia	1	1	9.09%	12
Compton	1	1	9.09%	12